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When I did motorcycle track days a few years ago, safety tech was rigorously followed. I suspect a bit of it is due to it being easier to do on a motorcycle than a car. Two things were very strictly followed:
- Participants in Intermediate and above groups had to safety wire their oil drain plugs, filters and coolant caps. These helped ensure that the participant made sure there was no leaks from these drain locations
- Each bike had to go through a safety tech in the morning before first session - safety wiring was inspected, along with basic things like wheel bolts, chain condition etc.
I know this will add delays and added work to track days but I wonder if basic safety wiring of drain bolts should become mandatory for track days.
Motorcycle track day safety inspection is more rigorous because the stupid things are so much more dangerous. Deep triple digits with nothing but leather and a helmet to protect you. I did them, too.
Look, if oil plugs and filters were falling off cars during events, maybe we consider this. Doubtful that's the case, though.
And that line about cats having thumbs...so true. So very true.
- Participants in Intermediate and above groups had to safety wire their oil drain plugs, filters and coolant caps. These helped ensure that the participant made sure there was no leaks from these drain locations
From reading Rennlist (this thread and others), the conclusion is nobody should be allowed on track unless they have a new car with no oil leaks, new tires, hans, a roll cage, full racing suit and fire suppression. And now we should safety wire drain plugs (my suspicion is this had nothing to do with this accident). This would kill the DE day.
Maybe we need to look deeper. I don't know the specifics of this incident but I think the way we run advanced hpde groups needs to be evaluated. Due to financial contraints no hpde day I've been to has had the personnel of a race day. Most flag stations are half manned. Yet we often allow full race prepped cars and drivers with racing experience to go full tilt with open passing.
i don't know the specifics/theme of this track day. But HPDE events to me are supposed to allow the average guy to bring his average car out on track and drive 7 or 8 tenths safely. Unfortunately they seem to have all become time trials with people timing and video taping themselves harassing or passing a Porsche, Corvette, etc that should be faster than them in the lower groups and open passing in the higher groups with guys running way too fast and hard for the crew at the track. I wonder if this latter situation led this seasoned flagger to do something he knows he shouldn't (step out onto the track). This is just speculation which I hate and most of this thread is. But just like better helmets have done nothing to stop brain injuries in football players (some evidence suggests actually promoted it) we need to be careful we don't make reactive safety changes that would simply kill the hpde day.
On a less argumentative note - Manifold, I like where your head's at. Rarely is it the single act of a 'bad' person. We all have the capacity to take a shortcut (often unconscious), rationalize mediocre decisions, and of course - be selfish. All of these factors in the right context/system can result in an unintended outcome. "But I never meant to have x-happen".
Human imperfection, cognitive bias, system error models... openly recognizing these factors can mitigate risk without going crazy with policies and costs. Diligence re. anticipating the predictable nature of human behavior can go a long way but that requires at least one person in a leadership position at DE/race with a safety mindset and the ability to make (impose) good decisions.
And of course, worth reading anything by Tversky and/or Kahneman.
Yep, I doubt he expected to dump oil like that. And if he had expected to dump the oil, I doubt he would have put the car on track. In hindsight, he made a judgment error which resulted a sequence of events ending in tragedy, but a lot more info would be needed to know whether he was grossly negligent in the sense that a warning sign was obvious yet dismissed. Whether he will face legal liability is another matter, and not one for use to determine on RL.
The easy and reflexive answer is find and eliminate bad apples, and then assume everything will be fine again. But that's usually not the right answer, since safety depends mainly on how a system is set up and operates, and the behavior of people is highly influenced by the situations they find themselves in. With this particular incident, several things went wrong (or more accurately, didn't go right).
In addition to Reason, Tversky, and Kahneman, Sidney Dekker and Erik Hollnagel are good people to read specifically on safety, and some of their videos can be found on youtube.
Here's what the PCA Potomac tech form says about leaks:
Engine Compartment (general): ANY LEAKAGE OF FUEL OR BRAKE FLUID IS UNACCEPTABLE. No excessive engine oil, coolant, or power steering fluid leaks. Hoses/ wires must be in good cond. w/ no cracks/ abrasions, and secured away from all moving parts. No unused or uncovered openings through firewall. Late model 944/ 944T check fuel supply rail for leaks (upgrade must be installed if not in place).
Maybe we can all agree that the judgment of what counts as "excessive" leakage needs to be made by a qualified person - and the owner of the car may not be the right person to make that judgment.
From reading Rennlist (this thread and others), the conclusion is nobody should be allowed on track unless they have a new car with no oil leaks, new tires, hans, a roll cage, full racing suit and fire suppression. And now we should safety wire drain plugs (my suspicion is this had nothing to do with this accident). This would kill the DE day.
Maybe we need to look deeper. I don't know the specifics of this incident but I think the way we run advanced hpde groups needs to be evaluated. Due to financial contraints no hpde day I've been to has had the personnel of a race day. Most flag stations are half manned. Yet we often allow full race prepped cars and drivers with racing experience to go full tilt with open passing.
i don't know the specifics/theme of this track day. But HPDE events to me are supposed to allow the average guy to bring his average car out on track and drive 7 or 8 tenths safely. Unfortunately they seem to have all become time trials with people timing and video taping themselves harassing or passing a Porsche, Corvette, etc that should be faster than them in the lower groups and open passing in the higher groups with guys running way too fast and hard for the crew at the track. I wonder if this latter situation led this seasoned flagger to do something he knows he shouldn't (step out onto the track). This is just speculation which I hate and most of this thread is. But just like better helmets have done nothing to stop brain injuries in football players (some evidence suggests actually promoted it) we need to be careful we don't make reactive safety changes that would simply kill the hpde day.
Oh, so now nobody with any degree of skill should attend a DE day. And nobody should go fast. Or pass.
Presumably the optimal DE would involve masturbating in a Prius while parked at an abandoned Sears store. Remember to wear sensible shoes.
You do bring up an excellent point about often inadequate flagging stations - a common cost saving measure for some DE providers that represents a very false economy.
i don't know the specifics/theme of this track day. But HPDE events to me are supposed to allow the average guy to bring his average car out on track and drive 7 or 8 tenths safely. Unfortunately they seem to have all become time trials with people timing and video taping themselves harassing or passing a Porsche, Corvette, etc that should be faster than them in the lower groups and open passing in the higher groups with guys running way too fast and hard for the crew at the track. I wonder if this latter situation led this seasoned flagger to do something he knows he shouldn't (step out onto the track). This is just speculation which I hate and most of this thread is. But just like better helmets have done nothing to stop brain injuries in football players (some evidence suggests actually promoted it) we need to be careful we don't make reactive safety changes that would simply kill the hpde day.
Part of the appeal of the sport is getting better and faster over time. People in the top run groups are usually there partly because they're able to drive faster than 7/8-tenths and enjoy doing it. I don't think it's realistic to expect people in the top run groups to dial it way back, nor could that really be enforced anyway.
On this particular track day, the problem was oil on track, and even if the drivers had been doing 8-tenths, they still would have lost control when they hit the oil.
Presumably the optimal DE would involve masturbating in a Prius while parked at an abandoned Sears store. Remember to wear sensible shoes.
I believe the sensible shoes would be birkenstocks and the prius must be lubed with petrouli oil. Sounds like a fun event and you could expand it to abandoned toys r us parking lots as well.
Let's franchise this!
I know this is a serious thread but I think we have all been at the track when something serious has gone down. You have to honor the dead, reflect on what happened, and then shake it off.
Last edited by LuigiVampa; 10-18-2018 at 11:31 AM.
On this particular track day, the problem was oil on track, and even if the drivers had been doing 8-tenths, they still would have lost control when they hit the oil.
There will always be incidents of oil on track with combustion engines. I will argue the problem on this day was the mindset of the flagger resulting in him/her doing something they normally wouldn't.
There will always be incidents of oil on track with combustion engines. I will argue the problem on this day was the mindset of the flagger resulting in him/her doing something they normally wouldn't.
But the question is why he did it. If it's because he was trying to cover for an unmanned station while there was mayhem on the track due to spilled oil from a car which may have been previously leaking enough to present an obvious warning sign, at an event which allowed self-tech, all of the contributing factors need to be considered. These things are all connected. I don't know exactly what happened, but we have enough eyewitness accounts to have some ideas, and it seems very likely that there were multiple contributing factors.
We shouldn't be quick to "blame" the flagger. In some unusual situations, it can be reasonable to break "rules."
And I personally am not ready to accept that argument that fluids dumped on track is in the **** happens category. It's one of the biggest hazards we can face on track, so extra measures should be taken to prevent it from happening. I can't accept flying off the track at 100+ mph and being killed or my car destroyed - or that happening to my wife - because someone else brought a car to the track which had far above-average risk of dumping fluids.
Oh, so now nobody with any degree of skill should attend a DE day. And nobody should go fast. Or pass.
Presumably the optimal DE would involve masturbating in a Prius while parked at an abandoned Sears store. Remember to wear sensible shoes.
You do bring up an excellent point about often inadequate flagging stations - a common cost saving measure for some DE providers that represents a very false economy.
This is a little harsh. But I do think we should drive according to track conditions. And number of safety crew manning the track should be considered. I was at a track day several weeks ago where there was a wreck. Only 3 of the 10 corners had flaggers. And after the track was cleared one of those flaggers hopped in the ambulance to assist the person who crashed who subsequently had already gotten out of their car and started walking back to the pits because it had taken so long for someone to get to him.
But the question is why he did it. If it's because he was trying to cover for an unmanned station while there was mayhem on the track due to spilled oil from a car which may have been previously leaking enough to present an obvious warning sign, at an event which allowed self-tech, all of the contributing factors need to be considered. These things are all connected. I don't know exactly what happened, but we have enough eyewitness accounts to have some ideas, and it seems very likely that there were multiple contributing factors.
We shouldn't be quick to "blame" the flagger. In some unusual situations, it can be reasonable to break "rules."
I've been hesitating to squash the location of the flagger because it is an active investigation. The two cars that were "totaled" and you guys wouldn't even be able to believe how one of them was able to walk away from the car . The car behind me winded up moving the concrete wall barrier by 3 feet and cracked it in multiple places. Porsche did a real good job building gt3 and gt3rs.
I'm attaching a random video of mine at Laguna Seca from a couple of months ago. Fast forward to 4:20 of the video. You will see a flag box at the right side of turn 6. He can basically see to the flag station at turn 7 which is on the left at around: 4:27. From that point, it is blind to the flagger at turn 6 to the flagger entering the corkscrew. We can start seeing the flagger at the corkscrew and he can start seeing us at the 2nd brake marker at around 4:31 of the video. There is approximately 1 second from the brake marker until turning into the corkscrew.
I felt the loss of traction at around the 4:28 mark and saw the rear of the car in front of me rotate from that point and i lost sight of it as it went over the hill. Next time I saw it; it was head on into the wall and corner worker on the ground.
You'll see this particular flagger behind the wall. Contrary to people saying he was on the "track"; he was not on the pavement. He was on the other side of the wall facing oncoming cars and his right hip might have been six inches away from the wall. That was really the only way for him to try to get our attention that the danger was before the corkscrew and not into the corkscrew. I don't think anyone could envision that a car would go flying through there. Based on the pictures, etc.; it doesn't seem like the lead car made it over to the right by the brake markers. Just kept on going straight and onto the gravel from the curbing on the left.
Just my two cents: 1) installing lights at the track wouldn't make any difference, because most people don't see the existing flag stations. I've instructed, instructors who can't even tell me where they are at most tracks. People are being advanced well beyond their capabilities in the name of keeping clients . 2) it's all of our jobs to say something if we see something. The owner of the car may not like to hear it, but consider the consequences. 3) Any car is capable of spilling its guts at any time and your best defense is being prepared. That means the proper safety equipment, knowing your escape routs, checking each and every flag station as you approach or around the corner, if you can. In the end, your safety is your responsibility.
So you're talking about the guy standing behind the wall on the left side at the end of the wall at 4:32? And he just walked around the end and was trying to flag from the hot side of the wall, facing the oncoming cars?
And I personally am not ready to accept that argument that fluids dumped on track is in the **** happens category. It's one of the biggest hazards we can face on track, so extra measures should be taken to prevent it from happening. I can't accept flying off the track at 100+ mph and being killed or my car destroyed - or that happening to my wife - because someone else brought a car to the track which had far above-average risk of dumping fluids.
I agree. But there were comments on this thread that the leaker should be held to criminal and civil punishment which is ludicrous. My point was to factor in our behavior as participants and what we could do different. Safety measures such as more expensive equipment will not eliminate brain injury and save football. A change in the players behavior and how they tackle might. I think the same goes for hpde days. Paying $300 for a track day just doesn't cash flow in my calculations. I don't know how any track breaks even with that.
10-18-2018, 08:27 AM
