Massive crash at Laguna tody?
10-18-2018, 12:00 PM
#166
He was trying to get our attention before entering the corkscrew.
10-18-2018, 12:06 PM
#167
Drifting
10-18-2018, 12:14 PM
#168
Rennlist Member
This is a little harsh. But I do think we should drive according to track conditions. And number of safety crew manning the track should be considered. I was at a track day several weeks ago where there was a wreck. Only 3 of the 10 corners had flaggers. And after the track was cleared one of those flaggers hopped in the ambulance to assist the person who crashed who subsequently had already gotten out of their car and started walking back to the pits because it had taken so long for someone to get to him.
I totally agree with your comments about flaggers. With time on track you will inevitably see or experience the unexpected.... and appreciate the role of the flaggers. They literally can help to keep us alive. Hence, any cut-rate bargain DE day that has a minimum crew of flagger - a de facto casual safety culture - isn't worth participating in. Period. But novices and bargain hunters don't appreciate this.
10-18-2018, 12:22 PM
#169
Rennlist Member
One comment about lights. In my experience (i.e. Road America) they are an excellent addition to manned flag stations. But I don't think they will suffice as a stand alone measure. We are wired to attend to movement and hence a vigorously waved flag is much more likely to attract our attention. And I would echo other sentiments here that too many people on track fail to recognize, remember, and attend to flag stations. So if lights could augment awareness then... great.
10-18-2018, 12:33 PM
#170
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^ Right. And water cooled cars by prevalence and incident frequency are much more likely to spill coolant (or indeed x-amount of oil) with similar potential catastrophic outcomes. Care to debate further with facts or long experience?
This thread needs to settle down.
RIP. Thx to others for organizing and posting donation link.
This thread needs to settle down.
RIP. Thx to others for organizing and posting donation link.
First they came for the air-cooled cars, but I said nothing, because I didn't drive an air-cooled car.
Then they came for the 944s, but I said nothing, because I didn't drive a 944.
...you know how it goes.
Bottom line is $hit happens at the track and we all have a duty to be heads up in our driving and maintenance to prevent tragedies like this.
Then they came for the 944s, but I said nothing, because I didn't drive a 944.
...you know how it goes.
Bottom line is $hit happens at the track and we all have a duty to be heads up in our driving and maintenance to prevent tragedies like this.
On a less argumentative note - Manifold, I like where your head's at. Rarely is it the single act of a 'bad' person. We all have the capacity to take a shortcut (often unconscious), rationalize mediocre decisions, and of course - be selfish. All of these factors in the right context/system can result in an unintended outcome. "But I never meant to have x-happen".
Human imperfection, cognitive bias, system error models... openly recognizing these factors can mitigate risk without going crazy with policies and costs. Diligence re. anticipating the predictable nature of human behavior can go a long way but that requires at least one person in a leadership position at DE/race with a safety mindset and the ability to make (impose) good decisions.
James Reason:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1117770/
And of course, worth reading anything by Tversky and/or Kahneman.
Human imperfection, cognitive bias, system error models... openly recognizing these factors can mitigate risk without going crazy with policies and costs. Diligence re. anticipating the predictable nature of human behavior can go a long way but that requires at least one person in a leadership position at DE/race with a safety mindset and the ability to make (impose) good decisions.
James Reason:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1117770/
And of course, worth reading anything by Tversky and/or Kahneman.
Absolutely.
I lost a car years ago at the Glen when a water-cooled vehicle dumped its entire engine oil in the soul of the boot. I was very lucky but my car was destroyed. Things happen, sometimes extremely unpleasant things.
People at this event seem to want to hang the owner of the RWB. Maybe he did something wrong. You should let due process work its way through. One thing I am certain of is the owner of that car feels devastated. Imagine how YOU would feel if YOUR engine failure led to someone being maimed or killed. And don't kid yourselves, any of us could find themselves in this position even though the odds of it happening are extreme.
This online lynch mob mentality is very bad.
I lost a car years ago at the Glen when a water-cooled vehicle dumped its entire engine oil in the soul of the boot. I was very lucky but my car was destroyed. Things happen, sometimes extremely unpleasant things.
People at this event seem to want to hang the owner of the RWB. Maybe he did something wrong. You should let due process work its way through. One thing I am certain of is the owner of that car feels devastated. Imagine how YOU would feel if YOUR engine failure led to someone being maimed or killed. And don't kid yourselves, any of us could find themselves in this position even though the odds of it happening are extreme.
This online lynch mob mentality is very bad.
One comment about lights. In my experience (i.e. Road America) they are an excellent addition to manned flag stations. But I don't think they will suffice as a stand alone measure. We are wired to attend to movement and hence a vigorously waved flag is much more likely to attract our attention. And I would echo other sentiments here that too many people on track fail to recognize, remember, and attend to flag stations. So if lights could augment awareness then... great.
10-18-2018, 12:43 PM
#171
Race Car
I don't understand how the car in question could dump that much oil and still make it back to the pits?
The odd drip will not be enough to make anyone spin. All Porsches leak a bit in spots. They are Porsches.
BTW My 996 TT takes as much oil as my aircooled plus has the much more problematic coolant.
The odd drip will not be enough to make anyone spin. All Porsches leak a bit in spots. They are Porsches.
BTW My 996 TT takes as much oil as my aircooled plus has the much more problematic coolant.
10-18-2018, 12:47 PM
#172
I don't understand how the car in question could dump that much oil and still make it back to the pits?
The odd drip will not be enough to make anyone spin. All Porsches leak a bit in spots. They are Porsches.
BTW My 996 TT takes as much oil as my aircooled plus has the much more problematic coolant.
The odd drip will not be enough to make anyone spin. All Porsches leak a bit in spots. They are Porsches.
BTW My 996 TT takes as much oil as my aircooled plus has the much more problematic coolant.
My understanding is that it was held overnight in paddock and the two cars that crashed stayed on the track overnight while legal authorities investigated.
10-18-2018, 12:57 PM
#173
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I don't understand how the car in question could dump that much oil and still make it back to the pits?
The odd drip will not be enough to make anyone spin. All Porsches leak a bit in spots. They are Porsches.
BTW My 996 TT takes as much oil as my aircooled plus has the much more problematic coolant.
The odd drip will not be enough to make anyone spin. All Porsches leak a bit in spots. They are Porsches.
BTW My 996 TT takes as much oil as my aircooled plus has the much more problematic coolant.
But this is the larger problem: people clearly have different standards for what a "leak" is where there should be a clear understanding that we need to err on the side of caution. That isn't the case. People often exercise **** judgment, so you gotta take the decision out of their hands sometimes. I've seen morons on track in advanced in high-hp cars running 10 seconds off-pace with **** hanging from their mirrors. And self-tech is more broadly is just a bad idea because most people aren't even close to 'journeyman' mechanics. Yea, it's a hassle, but it's not prohibitively costly to get professional techs done regularly and let's face it: if you can't afford to tech, and you can't afford to fix, then you can't afford to race. Racing isn't an entitlement. I bailed on an event in August because I noticed a bit of oil on my midtray and I knew I didn't have time to get it up on a lift to check it out; as it turned out, it was oil left over from an oil change and not a leak at all. I'm still glad I bailed.
HPDE drivers aren't (generally) pros. This isn't a mid-stage in a professional rally where as long as it drives it's "good to go," even with three wheels and half a motor.
As far as how he made it back? The corkscrew isn't far from the pits and it's downhill. Driver was in the pits before completing his first lap so clearly he lost enough oil (or there was enough smoke) to trigger a pressure warning or notice a problem and get off.
10-18-2018, 01:05 PM
#174
Well I was hoping it was more funny than harsh. I will try to send you a soothing emoji if that helps.
I totally agree with your comments about flaggers. With time on track you will inevitably see or experience the unexpected.... and appreciate the role of the flaggers. They literally can help to keep us alive. Hence, any cut-rate bargain DE day that has a minimum crew of flagger - a de facto casual safety culture - isn't worth participating in. Period. But novices and bargain hunters don't appreciate this.
I totally agree with your comments about flaggers. With time on track you will inevitably see or experience the unexpected.... and appreciate the role of the flaggers. They literally can help to keep us alive. Hence, any cut-rate bargain DE day that has a minimum crew of flagger - a de facto casual safety culture - isn't worth participating in. Period. But novices and bargain hunters don't appreciate this.
10-18-2018, 01:11 PM
#175
Drifting
From reading Rennlist (this thread and others), the conclusion is nobody should be allowed on track unless they have a new car with no oil leaks, new tires, hans, a roll cage, full racing suit and fire suppression. And now we should safety wire drain plugs (my suspicion is this had nothing to do with this accident).
10-18-2018, 01:17 PM
#176
Three Wheelin'
10-18-2018, 01:37 PM
#177
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Here in the midwest small local tracks are struggling. The option is no track day vs a minimally staffed track day. If I pass an unmanned flag station and the next corner is a blind corner over a crest my ONLY option is to back off. I don't know if there is a deer, oil, car, or person on the other side. And for sure I won't race into that corner with multiple cars around me.
10-18-2018, 01:37 PM
#178
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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I don't understand how the car in question could dump that much oil and still make it back to the pits?
The odd drip will not be enough to make anyone spin. All Porsches leak a bit in spots. They are Porsches.
BTW My 996 TT takes as much oil as my aircooled plus has the much more problematic coolant.
The odd drip will not be enough to make anyone spin. All Porsches leak a bit in spots. They are Porsches.
BTW My 996 TT takes as much oil as my aircooled plus has the much more problematic coolant.
Driver of 911 never even came over to see how the other driver was.
10-18-2018, 02:09 PM
#179
IMO, if an event can't be run with proper safety measures, including manning all key flag stations, the event shouldn't be run at all. Keep in mind that novices aren't in a position to have a meaningful understanding of the risks they face at track events - and even experienced people often don't understand those risks well enough - so there's a responsibility for event organizers to know what they're doing and make sure all of the basic requirements for a safe event are met. This is an optional recreational activity which involves real risks, and lack of resources isn't a good excuse to go ahead and run events if that can't be done safely enough.
10-18-2018, 02:19 PM
#180
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Why not raise registration fees to cover the cost of additional staff? Otherwise, you're cutting corners on safety and endangering people who don't understand the risks, in order to reduce costs. Higher registration fees would mean that people go less often, not that they don't get to go at all.