Incident at Lime Rock
08-31-2017, 02:01 PM
#46
Pro
Actually they weren't in class. The camera car in the first link is a Honda 2. The passing car is a Honda 1. Frank didn't look to be racing anyone. Seems so senseless.
I don't know who was in line behind the incident. But I might understand the passing Hondas impatience. If you lose momentum at Lime Rock, it hurts you badly. You can lose 3 seconds in a heartbeat.
I don't know who was in line behind the incident. But I might understand the passing Hondas impatience. If you lose momentum at Lime Rock, it hurts you badly. You can lose 3 seconds in a heartbeat.
08-31-2017, 02:28 PM
#47
Burning Brakes
Incident stinks for both involved......
Frank what's your mirrors in the car, if you didnt see him going for it i would strongly suggest getting some more vision for the blind spot, if you saw him go for it and didnt open the wheel that's just silly for the amount of money we are racing for
08-31-2017, 02:50 PM
#48
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Yeah I'm not on Facebook so I haven't been following the noise.
It's such a fuzzy picture but looks like two Honda 2 cars and maybe a Honda 1 car behind the two incident cars. If that's a Honda 1 then I can understand the urgency.
I'd like to hear Boxster's thoughts on the incident. A faster car is charging hard down your inside. He is obviously committed to make the pass. Did you think he was going to disappear when you took the normal line? All you had to do was give a half a car width and this thread wouldn't have started. Did you see him coming?
If you didn't want him to pass, then why was your posture showing the door open. If you want to telegraph that you don't want to be passed, then you take a tighter line on entry. And even then, be ready for him to still come through.
It's such a fuzzy picture but looks like two Honda 2 cars and maybe a Honda 1 car behind the two incident cars. If that's a Honda 1 then I can understand the urgency.
I'd like to hear Boxster's thoughts on the incident. A faster car is charging hard down your inside. He is obviously committed to make the pass. Did you think he was going to disappear when you took the normal line? All you had to do was give a half a car width and this thread wouldn't have started. Did you see him coming?
If you didn't want him to pass, then why was your posture showing the door open. If you want to telegraph that you don't want to be passed, then you take a tighter line on entry. And even then, be ready for him to still come through.
08-31-2017, 02:56 PM
#49
I'm in....
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Yeah I'm not on Facebook so I haven't been following the noise.
It's such a fuzzy picture but looks like two Honda 2 cars and maybe a Honda 1 car behind the two incident cars. If that's a Honda 1 then I can understand the urgency.
I'd like to hear Boxster's thoughts on the incident. A faster car is charging hard down your iside. He is obviously committed to make the pass. Did you think he was going to disappear when you took the normal line? All you had to do was give a half a car width and this thread wouldn't have started. Did you see him coming?
If you didn't want him to pass, then why was your posture showing the door open. If you want to telegraph that you don't want to be passed, then you take a tighter line on entry. And even then, be ready for him to still come through.
It's such a fuzzy picture but looks like two Honda 2 cars and maybe a Honda 1 car behind the two incident cars. If that's a Honda 1 then I can understand the urgency.
I'd like to hear Boxster's thoughts on the incident. A faster car is charging hard down your iside. He is obviously committed to make the pass. Did you think he was going to disappear when you took the normal line? All you had to do was give a half a car width and this thread wouldn't have started. Did you see him coming?
If you didn't want him to pass, then why was your posture showing the door open. If you want to telegraph that you don't want to be passed, then you take a tighter line on entry. And even then, be ready for him to still come through.
08-31-2017, 03:20 PM
#51
"Proper lines" are for DE. No such thing as a "proper line" (and "ownership" of same) in racing. If you leave the door wide open by "just driving your line" you invite attempts at overlap from the car behind. Once it establishes overlap, the proper thing to do is to give it racing room.
To prevent or control a potential overlap from the car behind you should drive a defensive line or "make your car wider" which gives you some say as to on which side the overlap will take place. In other words, you shut the door before the overlap by choosing a defensive line -- and remove all doubt -- not when the passing car is already right beside you. This is what "being predictable" means in racing -- not driving your "proper line" where you signal leaving racing room by opening the door wide then slamming it shut by going for "your" apex as if no one else was there.
This is why mirrors are mandatory on all race cars. They wouldn't be needed if driving your "proper line" was all it took to be proper.
In the OP's case, someone noted that the passing car was leading a tight group of very close in-class competitors. If it didn't take the wide open door and just lined up behind the OP's car, then the car behind it would have likely gone for it instead.
Like everyone else here -- just my opinion.
To prevent or control a potential overlap from the car behind you should drive a defensive line or "make your car wider" which gives you some say as to on which side the overlap will take place. In other words, you shut the door before the overlap by choosing a defensive line -- and remove all doubt -- not when the passing car is already right beside you. This is what "being predictable" means in racing -- not driving your "proper line" where you signal leaving racing room by opening the door wide then slamming it shut by going for "your" apex as if no one else was there.
This is why mirrors are mandatory on all race cars. They wouldn't be needed if driving your "proper line" was all it took to be proper.
In the OP's case, someone noted that the passing car was leading a tight group of very close in-class competitors. If it didn't take the wide open door and just lined up behind the OP's car, then the car behind it would have likely gone for it instead.
Like everyone else here -- just my opinion.
As I see the first video, there is no overlap before the lead car turns in. In my view, if there is overlap before turn in, the lead car should leave racing room. I don't agree with the nasa 3/4 car width BS either. You should leave enough room for the car to stay on the track. But, since there was no overlap before turn in, the car trying to pass should have been expecting the lead car to go to the apex and should have backed off. He should o had a plan for this. Obviously he did not. I would not call this "just a racing incident". The car passing screwed up here.
Of course, the lead car running qualifying lines with cars on his a$$ didn't exactly do himself any favors. Cars running that wide in close racing are inviting cars to pass them there.
08-31-2017, 03:22 PM
#52
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by sbelles
CThe OP has stated that he didn't think the Honda would try it there since there are two, better passing oppertunities coming up. My guess is he was looking through the apex since he had already turned in when the Honda made his move.
I just watched the first clip again. The Honda made his move at the exit of the uphill. It's not like he popped to the inside at the last second. Should have seen it coming.
I know you guys are a bit biased since you're PCA buds, and I'm perhaps a bit biased because I'm NASA. But I'm not a Honda dude! I have the advantage because I race with these guys. I know how their behavior patterns.
08-31-2017, 03:32 PM
#53
I'm in....
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Expect the unexpected!
I just watched the first clip again. The Honda made his move at the exit of the uphill. It's not like he popped to the inside at the last second. Should have seen it coming.
I know you guys are a bit biased since you're PCA buds, and I'm perhaps a bit biased because I'm NASA. But I'm not a Honda dude! I have the advantage because I race with these guys. I know how their behavior patterns.
I just watched the first clip again. The Honda made his move at the exit of the uphill. It's not like he popped to the inside at the last second. Should have seen it coming.
I know you guys are a bit biased since you're PCA buds, and I'm perhaps a bit biased because I'm NASA. But I'm not a Honda dude! I have the advantage because I race with these guys. I know how their behavior patterns.
08-31-2017, 07:24 PM
#54
Addict
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I know Frank is not a fan AT ALL of blocking and wonder if his line was indicative of that.
This situation happens multiple times a race/weekend in multi-class cars, especially in Enduros, but this one resulted in contact.
Having been in both positions of being lapped and lapping slower classes, you the lapped car have to EXPEPCT the dive bomb on every corner, especially if the lead car is being harassed from behind. He's not going to wait for a "better place on track to pass" -- that's called a DE. The video shows Frank leaving the door open for a long time and the Honda "presenting himself" offline and to Frank's right side. IMO, the Honda is telegraphing to Frank that he's going for it while at the same time defending the inside from the car behind him, because if the Honda takes the same "ideal" line as Frank, I'm expecting the car behind the lead Honda to dive inside.
Conversely, if the Boxster is leaving this much room, and I'm presenting myself, I have to expect the Boxster to turn in and try and go for the apex and as the passing car, have to be prepared to bail out of the pass attempt.
Having raced in NASA, this is a non event. No penalties to either side.
This situation happens multiple times a race/weekend in multi-class cars, especially in Enduros, but this one resulted in contact.
Having been in both positions of being lapped and lapping slower classes, you the lapped car have to EXPEPCT the dive bomb on every corner, especially if the lead car is being harassed from behind. He's not going to wait for a "better place on track to pass" -- that's called a DE. The video shows Frank leaving the door open for a long time and the Honda "presenting himself" offline and to Frank's right side. IMO, the Honda is telegraphing to Frank that he's going for it while at the same time defending the inside from the car behind him, because if the Honda takes the same "ideal" line as Frank, I'm expecting the car behind the lead Honda to dive inside.
Conversely, if the Boxster is leaving this much room, and I'm presenting myself, I have to expect the Boxster to turn in and try and go for the apex and as the passing car, have to be prepared to bail out of the pass attempt.
Having raced in NASA, this is a non event. No penalties to either side.
08-31-2017, 10:18 PM
#55
Several have mentioned ejecting and at least one other "low percentage move". What makes this a good move and high percentage success is commitment. You can't be ready to eject. You are past the brake zone on the bumpy entry to the apex with apex curbing and grass. You can't eject there. You can't brake there. You can only commit. What makes contact often times is failure to fully commit questioning one's talent. All you have is some evasion to the inside and then grass. But is also takes two to prevent the contact. When the guy is next to you can (can be seen without mirrors) don't hit him. He has you by that time and the smart play is to let him by minimizing your loss of momentum so that you have a chance of getting him back.
08-31-2017, 10:27 PM
#56
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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I started with PDA ten years ago and then it merged into NASA NE. Joe Casella was in charge and his son, who I believe made the FB post, was an newish racer in the series, as I recall.
For someone who is a racer to use a justification that a faster group was coming through is just plain wrong. That is not what multi-class racing is about. You can't barge through because you are faster. I've been the slow car in a fast run group and the fast car in a slow run group. The respect needs to work both ways.
Additionally, there IS a line in racing. It is the most efficient line around the track and the line we all drive when we have open track in front of us and not a lot of pressure in back of us.
The line Frank took is the line I would have taken into West Bend if there was no one behind me. The argument is whether he left the door open too wide. Anybody who has driven that corner would know that Frank was going to come back in toward the apex of the corner.
He might have signaled it better to remove doubt but I fault the following car for not realizing what that corner is about.
For someone who is a racer to use a justification that a faster group was coming through is just plain wrong. That is not what multi-class racing is about. You can't barge through because you are faster. I've been the slow car in a fast run group and the fast car in a slow run group. The respect needs to work both ways.
Additionally, there IS a line in racing. It is the most efficient line around the track and the line we all drive when we have open track in front of us and not a lot of pressure in back of us.
The line Frank took is the line I would have taken into West Bend if there was no one behind me. The argument is whether he left the door open too wide. Anybody who has driven that corner would know that Frank was going to come back in toward the apex of the corner.
He might have signaled it better to remove doubt but I fault the following car for not realizing what that corner is about.
08-31-2017, 10:30 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
Scott, there was some overlap
08-31-2017, 10:36 PM
#58
I'm in....
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08-31-2017, 10:39 PM
#59
Rennlist Member
Several have mentioned ejecting and at least one other "low percentage move". What makes this a good move and high percentage success is commitment. You can't be ready to eject. You are past the brake zone on the bumpy entry to the apex with apex curbing and grass. You can't eject there. You can't brake there. You can only commit. What makes contact often times is failure to fully commit questioning one's talent. All you have is some evasion to the inside and then grass. But is also takes two to prevent the contact. When the guy is next to you can (can be seen without mirrors) don't hit him. He has you by that time and the smart play is to let him by minimizing your loss of momentum so that you have a chance of getting him back.
I've seen it suggested often that the inside passing car should just "pull-out" or "eject" in similar situations as if doing so under late threshold braking and cornering at the limit is a choice that someone could easily make ("Just brake harder!").
If the passing car eased off so much and so early to be able to safely make that choice it could never have established the sufficient overlap to demand racing room from the outside car in the first place -- especially true with very close competitors. This is why leaving racing room upon overlap is essential, IMO.
08-31-2017, 10:46 PM
#60
Perfect Angel
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For someone who is a racer to use a justification that a faster group was coming through is just plain wrong. That is not what multi-class racing is about. You can't barge through because you are faster. I've been the slow car in a fast run group and the fast car in a slow run group. The respect needs to work both ways.