Steve113

Dive bomb , there was racing room left open by Frank. The out for the late pass was using more of the curbing.

If you make a move like that you better think ahead with your out . The passer didn't and he ended up causing the damage . If you are going to make a big boy move you better have a big boy out.

Sorry just have no idea how anyone thinks its Frank that caused that. Granted you have to finish a race in order to win it . So in hindsight maybe you just give him the corner if its not a last lap thing . But there is no blame with Frank on what caused it

ProCoach

^^This^^

And just because you"telegraph" your move by driving down the middle of the road from the exit of Climbing Turn to West Bend, doesn't give you license NOT to recognize the closing window of space, especially in time to do something about it.

You know, this is the kind of organizational failure that gives tacit approval for drivers to try low percentage stuff like this.

There are VERY FEW "just racing" incidents...

fatbillybob

Where is the link to the video of this? Post #1 does not show one on my screen

Nizer

I had the same issue. Couldn't see vids on work computer; showed on my personal computer. Could have something to do with vids being Facebook.

hf1

Just click the " " quote button under the OP as if you are about to reply to it and they will show up in your edit window. I'll try posting them here:




EDIT: Well they didn't show up here either. Just do the trick I suggested. You can click the " " reply button on this post too -- the links are there.

fatbillybob

I don't know the track. Is this a problem of different guys racing in different organizations and thus different expectations? SCCA we don't have 13's. I don't think NASA does either.

The move by the passing car closing at a much higher speed made a very routine and expected move with what appears to be a giant wide open door. In fact in SCCA you will have 2 or 3 cars moving faster in a train battling and the slow car dive bombed by the 1st car only to be block passed by the 2nd and 3rd car of a train.

Gofishracing

The view is deceptive- Frank was on the proper line to carry the most speed down the hill. Trying to pass there is just not proper for any driving group. knowing the track. My feelings.

ProCoach

Bingo. Besides, if you optimally take West Bend and the Downhill, it makes for an easier pass where it's safer to pass.

In my opinion and observation, many drivers don't think far enough ahead. They want instant gratification. There's no study, just a lunge. There's only hoping, then praying... Sheesh.

Until the organizations make more clear the personal responsibility of initiating AND COMPLETING a safe pass, while backing it up with penalties for those that "just don't get it," this type of thoughtless behavior will continue...

RJFabCab

Good discussion: NASA racing incident

Regardless of what the rules say, my experience has been that different race organizations have different cultures.

My personal view about the Gums incident is that the S2K made a low percentage aggressive pass and is ultimately responsible for creating the 'situation'. However, it looks like once the S2K occupied some overlap space, the door was closed and contact ensued. I'm not sure how long the S2K was back there hounding you but I would have left him some room after this aggressive move to avoid the carnage. No way I'm expecting him to ride the curbs or grass to avoid me after making that move.

If I'm in the S2K position racing with PCA, no way am I diving in. My throttle foot automatically lifts as I approach expecting the lead car to turn in on me. In PCA, the S2K gets a 13. Forget about turning into one another and leaving racing room.

To contrast, if I'm in the S2K position with SCCA, that open inside lane is calling my name as well as the 2 cars on my bumper. In the Boxster without a more defensive line, I'm expecting someone to dive in and I'm ready to give room. In SCCA, this is a racing incident with the steward telling both drivers "you're not supposed to hit each other" LOL.

ProCoach hit it on the head about 'organizational issues' that allow this to continue. Racing incident just means that the S2K is going to do it again... if the door is open...

Unfortunately, many of us learn the culture and how rules are officiated 'after' an incident. It is what it is.

hf1

"Proper lines" are for DE. No such thing as a "proper line" (and "ownership" of same) in racing. If you leave the door wide open by "just driving your line" you invite attempts at overlap from the car behind. Once it establishes overlap, the proper thing to do is to give it racing room.

To prevent or control a potential overlap from the car behind you should drive a defensive line or "make your car wider" which gives you some say as to on which side the overlap will take place. In other words, you shut the door before the overlap by choosing a defensive line -- and remove all doubt -- not when the passing car is already right beside you. This is what "being predictable" means in racing -- not driving your "proper line" where you signal leaving racing room by opening the door wide then slamming it shut by going for "your" apex as if no one else was there.

This is why mirrors are mandatory on all race cars. They wouldn't be needed if driving your "proper line" was all it took to be proper.

In the OP's case, someone noted that the passing car was leading a tight group of very close in-class competitors. If it didn't take the wide open door and just lined up behind the OP's car, then the car behind it would have likely gone for it instead.

Like everyone else here -- just my opinion.

fatbillybob

I completely agree. This is racing as I know it.


I used to run with a group who consulted drivers new to the group and asked where they raced. This allowed the organizer to caution the new driver things like the PCA way or the SCCA way. The new driver also ran with an "X" on the car announcing to veterans of the group to just pay a bit more attention and err on the side of caution and give the newbie some space. I think that is how to reduce incidents. Neither set of rules is better than the other. Each group is entitled to it's culture and will attract certain members. I don't think one size fits all.

Streak

PCA: 13 to the passing car

NASA: no fault or fault to both.

It's NASA's rule set. I watch that and see the faster car coming thru the door looking to be left open for him then it closed. I am not familiar with Lime Rock though and others have indicated that thats a bad place to pass. Boxster should've been aware of the leaders coming thru. 2 feet to the left and this isn't an incident.

LuigiVampa

This has the makings of a really good rap lyric!

StoogeMoe

Actually they weren't in class. The camera car in the first link is a Honda 2. The passing car is a Honda 1. Frank didn't look to be racing anyone. Seems so senseless.

I don't know who was in line behind the incident. But I might understand the passing Hondas impatience. If you lose momentum at Lime Rock, it hurts you badly. You can lose 3 seconds in a heartbeat.

spg993tt

So this is why pca can possibly make sense for certain folks depending on your objectives in the car. in scca or nasa you probably just go about the rest of your day, you have a few hundred bucks in wrinkled body panels or worse, frank's race is toast, and thats that.
could have gotten pushed into that outer wall and the car gets destroyed or T-boned sitting mid-track.
there is a certain mentality that its ok to do that move. there is no discipline that came his way, so that defines what their racing is all about. contact isnt desired, but it happens, thats racing.
unfortunately with it comes possible costs, ruined races, possibly body damage.

not my cup of tea