hf1

+1

winders

I don't think NASA lets you count overlap happening after turn in either. PCA would give a 13 to the passer. NASA would still say the passer was at fault and give Frank a earful about what he did.

Streak

The NASA rules don't mention turn in. They specifically mention when and how much overlap gives the passing car the right to be there and awareness responsibility of the leading car.

multi21

I'm with you scott, I hate the NASA 3/4 car width rule. In essence, and by definition, NASA rules specifically say that you are legally allowed to push someone, 2 wheels off track. By rule, the S2k should have put his right side tires in the dirt to avoid contact and Frank would be been in the right to squeeze him to the apex and beyond.

Aside from NASA, is there any other racing organization that has a 3/4 car width rule?

hf1

Good point. Turn-in could be tens of feet apart for different cars/drivers and for different race situations. There are no turn-in cones in racing.

My personal rule is to give racing room to the passing car upon ANY overlap ANYWHERE on the track, regardless of the club or series. If I don't want overlap at a certain place or on a certain side, I signal that clearly with the positioning of my car (defensive line, early turn-in, etc.) -- making it either impossible or extremely sub-optimal (due to loss of momentum) for the passer to stick his nose there.

Judging from many of the comments here it looks like the art of overlap management may be severely underappreciated, even completely neglected by some.

hf1

The 3/4 car width rule is pretty idiotic, IMO. I see no logic behind it whatsoever. You either give room (car width + inch) or you don't. There are millions of places where putting two wheels off is impossible for the inside car or extremely dangerous for BOTH cars.

winders

How many of you guys turn in with no cars overlapping you and then look in your mirrors to see where other cars are around you? Anybody?? I didn't think so.....

I know where the cars are around me at turn in...if there is overlap I leave racing room. If there is not I go to the apex and I am looking down the track before I scan my mirrors again.

Once a driver turns in, they are fairly well committed. If you are driving near the limit, you don't have a lot options to make big changes.

Thundermoose

No series wants contact. Head should be on a swivel - safe driving and racing room should override "rights" in my opinion. My car is the only trophy that I drive for....and contingency tires...and NASA TX mug.

Gofishracing

However you look at at- that's a bad place to try to make a pass at Lime Rock. Even to think of passing. Just wait for his track out . You can't enter that turn early at that angle and not land up hitting near the flag station I'd think. I'm a DE guy but have 30 years driving that track.

Juha G

Understand there are many different racing series with different rules but if the rules state someone "owns the corner", you can't really call it wheel to wheel racing anymore, can you? And if it's not wheel to wheel, well, then it's not really racing at all IMHO.

That said, it's the stupidest thing not to leave room when someone is closing in fast in your mirrors. It's like stepping under a 18-wheeler that is running a red light. Yes, you are not at fault but does it really matter?

With regards to watching your mirrors, someone told me once; "if you are unsure if there's a car beside you, then there likely is".

hf1

+1

hf1

So if you saw in your mirrors a car gaining on you from behind far to the right on the inside and you tracked all the way to the left for your DE/quali turn-in, then you would be able to judge overlap with an approaching car that's ten feet to your right and behind with enough certainty to just go for the apex and deny racing room?

Yes, then imagine how the inside driver feels under those same exact circumstances, except much worse -- braking even later and harder than you and left with NO options if you decide to close the door on him.

As you approach that turn, if you see a car gaining on you on the inside with a chance of establishing overlap, then taking that turn via the DE/quali line (tracking all the way to the left for the "proper" turn-in then going all the way to the right for the apex) at the limit should be the last thing on your mind. The prudent thing to do would be to either (1) move to the inside defensive line or do an early turn-in and signal the car behind that an inside overlap is not in the cards (which you should do well before the other car comes near you) OR (2) stay left and leave racing room.

Just driving your DE/quali line and hoping that (1) you judged correctly that there was no overlap and that (2) if there was NO overlap, the inside car would be able to "pull out" under threshold braking and turning at the limit is the RISKIEST move for everyone involved.

winders

Deny racing room?? Don't you mean leave room for a stupid maneuver?

Look, if you can't get at least some overlap BEFORE the lead car turns in, you have no business trying to pass the lead car in that turn regardless of where the lead driver turned in from. That is just plain reckless you will get all or most of the blame for contact in any series you race in.

Having said that, I am not going to run wide and make it seem like I am leaving the inside wide open either unless that is exactly what I am doing. How is the guy behind me supposed to know? Well, if he races around me a lot, he probably knows what I am doing. If he doesn't know me at all, he should not assume anything.

I run in a multi-class group where I pass a lot of slower cars. I know most of the people but I only trust a handful. When I come up on slower cars running wide that I don't know or trust, I put pressure on the inside expecting to be cut off. If I don't get cut off, I take the line and pass. Heck, I pretty much do the same thing with people I know because I am never 100% sure they have seen me. I always leave myself an out. It's usually the brake pedal.

I also try not to pass in corners where people don't expect to be passed. I have done that in the past and really surprised drivers. It even caused one to spin out.

What the heck? That driver should be going into the pass, especially if no overlap has been established before turn in, with the idea that the pass ins't going to happen. He should have an out.

"Establishing overlap" is not dive bombing a corner and getting overlap just before contact.[/quote]

Remember, it the responsibility of the car passing to make a safe pass.

hf1

Yep, the passing car should just assume that the car in front is at DE without mirrors, driving his "proper" line, minding his own business until (BOOM!) a car presents itself from behind to his side with a full overlap + an inch. Until then, 100% of the responsibility for getting around this oblivious moving chicane is on the passing car. Got it.

Sue Esponte

That's how you get ahead in Real Racing 3! lol

I don't have a lot of track time to speak of but, as a newbie, it looks like the dive bomber went into the corner too hot either foolishly hoping to pass on the inside (but ran out of road) or just didn't realize the speed and line of the car in front of him and couldn't slow down in time to avoid the accident.

I'm curious to read ahead to see how this was resolved but I can't imagine how the lead car was in the wrong.

-Eric