Incident at Lime Rock
08-31-2017, 11:07 PM
#61
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For someone who is a racer to use a justification that a faster group was coming through is just plain wrong. That is not what multi-class racing is about. You can't barge through because you are faster. I've been the slow car in a fast run group and the fast car in a slow run group. The respect needs to work both ways.
Additionally, there IS a line in racing. It is the most efficient line around the track and the line we all drive when we have open track in front of us and not a lot of pressure in back of us.
The line Frank took is the line I would have taken into West Bend if there was no one behind me. The argument is whether he left the door open too wide. Anybody who has driven that corner would know that Frank was going to come back in toward the apex of the corner.
He might have signaled it better to remove doubt but I fault the following car for not realizing what that corner is about.
Additionally, there IS a line in racing. It is the most efficient line around the track and the line we all drive when we have open track in front of us and not a lot of pressure in back of us.
The line Frank took is the line I would have taken into West Bend if there was no one behind me. The argument is whether he left the door open too wide. Anybody who has driven that corner would know that Frank was going to come back in toward the apex of the corner.
He might have signaled it better to remove doubt but I fault the following car for not realizing what that corner is about.
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08-31-2017, 11:16 PM
#62
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Additionally, there IS a line in racing. It is the most efficient line around the track and the line we all drive when we have open track in front of us and not a lot of pressure in back of us.
The line Frank took is the line I would have taken into West Bend if there was no one behind me. The argument is whether he left the door open too wide. Anybody who has driven that corner would know that Frank was going to come back in toward the apex of the corner.
The line Frank took is the line I would have taken into West Bend if there was no one behind me. The argument is whether he left the door open too wide. Anybody who has driven that corner would know that Frank was going to come back in toward the apex of the corner.
He might have signaled it better to remove doubt but I fault the following car for not realizing what that corner is about.
"I was just driving my line, minding my own business" is not an argument in racing, or at least it shouldn't be, IMO.
08-31-2017, 11:39 PM
#64
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Except there was someone behind and to the right, coming up fast. Leaving the door open like that in that situation is signalling that racing room will be given.
You remove doubt and you signal your intention (that you will not allow an inside overlap) by taking the defensive line before the overlap is established. That way the car behind can't go inside (can't go through you) so it must either try the outside or position for a better attempt after that turn.
"I was just driving my line, minding my own business" is not an argument in racing, or at least it shouldn't be, IMO.
You remove doubt and you signal your intention (that you will not allow an inside overlap) by taking the defensive line before the overlap is established. That way the car behind can't go inside (can't go through you) so it must either try the outside or position for a better attempt after that turn.
"I was just driving my line, minding my own business" is not an argument in racing, or at least it shouldn't be, IMO.
Think of where the OP's car was relative to the apex when the pass was attempted. Where was he going? Was he going to evaporate?
I've passed and been passed in West Bend and would not have attempted that pass absent a great degree of confidence in the driver ahead and knowing what they would do.
09-01-2017, 12:32 AM
#65
I don't see overlap until after Frank turns in.
As someone else mentioned, DriverX positions his car early enough for the pass that Frank should have had an idea of his intent. Yet Frank maintained a very wide line in to the corner as if there was no one around. At the very least this gives DriverX a mixed message.
DriverX should have known that it was quite possible, even likely, that Frank would go to the apex. Why shouldn't he? He has the lead and there is no overlap when he turns in. Even if DriverX thinks Frank might be leaving him room to pass, he should leave himself an out in case that is not what happens.
Both drivers contributed to the incident but I would put the majority of the blame on DriverX for making a risky pass without a way out.
09-01-2017, 09:02 AM
#67
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There was overlap at turn-in. It's hard to see because the cars were so far apart -- the outside car all the way to the left, the inside car all the way to the right.
If the outside car took an early turn-in or a defensive line, then there would not have been overlap at turn-in.
I've passed and have been passed like this many times when racing with Skip Barber. Only a slow, lapped car would stay so far left for so long in front of fast approaching traffic, which meant it would leave racing room in the turn.
If the outside car took an early turn-in or a defensive line, then there would not have been overlap at turn-in.
I've passed and have been passed like this many times when racing with Skip Barber. Only a slow, lapped car would stay so far left for so long in front of fast approaching traffic, which meant it would leave racing room in the turn.
09-01-2017, 09:17 AM
#68
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Originally Posted by hf1
There was overlap at turn-in. It's hard to see because the cars were so far apart -- the outside car all the way to the left, the inside car all the way to the right.
If the outside car took an early turn-in or a defensive line, then there would not have been overlap at turn-in.
I've passed and have been passed like this many times when racing with Skip Barber. Only a slow, lapped car would stay so far left for so long in front of fast approaching traffic, which meant it would leave racing room in the turn.
If the outside car took an early turn-in or a defensive line, then there would not have been overlap at turn-in.
I've passed and have been passed like this many times when racing with Skip Barber. Only a slow, lapped car would stay so far left for so long in front of fast approaching traffic, which meant it would leave racing room in the turn.
09-01-2017, 10:09 AM
#69
The Penguin King
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This incident happened in a NASA race, not PCA club racing. We should be considering those rules, and not PCA's in evaluating it. You may not like those rules and as a result choose to not race with NASA, or you may prefer the NASA rules to PCA. Either way, it is the NASA rules that apply.
Based on qualifying times, there was a 3 second per lap differential between the S2K and the SPB. The two cars are in a completely different race. SPB should definitely know that long before the turn, and should know there is a train of cars coming, not just one. Furthermore SPB is at the moment racing no one. He has nothing to lose by yielding, and everything to lose by assuming that it is "his" corner.
SPB leaves the door wide open coming into the turn. If he wants the turn, he can clearly indicate it to the following cars by taking a shallower entry. Not sure why he would want the turn given the facts above, but it is his choice if he wants to take it. I doubt very much that had he taken a more defensive entry to the turn the S2k would have gone for the pass.
Racing incident 70% SPB fault.
Based on qualifying times, there was a 3 second per lap differential between the S2K and the SPB. The two cars are in a completely different race. SPB should definitely know that long before the turn, and should know there is a train of cars coming, not just one. Furthermore SPB is at the moment racing no one. He has nothing to lose by yielding, and everything to lose by assuming that it is "his" corner.
SPB leaves the door wide open coming into the turn. If he wants the turn, he can clearly indicate it to the following cars by taking a shallower entry. Not sure why he would want the turn given the facts above, but it is his choice if he wants to take it. I doubt very much that had he taken a more defensive entry to the turn the S2k would have gone for the pass.
Racing incident 70% SPB fault.
09-01-2017, 10:22 AM
#70
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Originally Posted by mglobe
This incident happened in a NASA race, not PCA club racing. We should be considering those rules, and not PCA's in evaluating it. You may not like those rules and as a result choose to not race with NASA, or you may prefer the NASA rules to PCA. Either way, it is the NASA rules that apply.
Based on qualifying times, there was a 3 second per lap differential between the S2K and the SPB. The two cars are in a completely different race. SPB should definitely know that long before the turn, and should know there is a train of cars coming, not just one. Furthermore SPB is at the moment racing no one. He has nothing to lose by yielding, and everything to lose by assuming that it is "his" corner.
SPB leaves the door wide open coming into the turn. If he wants the turn, he can clearly indicate it to the following cars by taking a shallower entry. Not sure why he would want the turn given the facts above, but it is his choice if he wants to take it. I doubt very much that had he taken a more defensive entry to the turn the S2k would have gone for the pass.
Racing incident 70% SPB fault.
Based on qualifying times, there was a 3 second per lap differential between the S2K and the SPB. The two cars are in a completely different race. SPB should definitely know that long before the turn, and should know there is a train of cars coming, not just one. Furthermore SPB is at the moment racing no one. He has nothing to lose by yielding, and everything to lose by assuming that it is "his" corner.
SPB leaves the door wide open coming into the turn. If he wants the turn, he can clearly indicate it to the following cars by taking a shallower entry. Not sure why he would want the turn given the facts above, but it is his choice if he wants to take it. I doubt very much that had he taken a more defensive entry to the turn the S2k would have gone for the pass.
Racing incident 70% SPB fault.
09-01-2017, 10:37 AM
#71
Rennlist Member
Yep
09-01-2017, 11:24 AM
#73
You can't barge through because you are faster. I've been the slow car in a fast run group and the fast car in a slow run group. The respect needs to work both ways.
Additionally, there IS a line in racing. It is the most efficient line around the track and the line we all drive when we have open track in front of us and not a lot of pressure in back of us.
The line Frank took is the line I would have taken into West Bend if there was no one behind me. The argument is whether he left the door open too wide. Anybody who has driven that corner would know that Frank was going to come back in toward the apex of the corner.
He might have signaled it better to remove doubt but I fault the following car for not realizing what that corner is about.
Yes anyone would go to the apex. That is how a corner is driven but you don't take a corner from the time trial line and shut the door when racing. That is just as unpredictable to the fast car as the appearance of the fast car is to the slow car.
The slow car was not on the racing line. It was on the time trial line. You run that line when you control the track. You defend it when cars are in close proximity which several are. You yield when faster out of class cars come through so that you can race your race.
While some might call the fast car lacking "respect." If you assume the slow car had "rights", which is still contended in this thread. What do you call the slow car failing to open his wheel a bit to avoid or limit contact? I'm not saying there is but there could be plenty of "red mist" to go around. To me this reminds me of the guy who steps into the crosswalk when his light turns green. He is 100% right to do so but in exerting his right gets run over in the intersection. He was dead right.
Finally, we see bits of some video. Video's lie. The OP and people on track are the only ones who can really appreciate the actions and the environment. I have seen video that show one car certainly turning into another yet that car having zero steering on the steering trace. Who do you believe? It is great to have these discussions but we have to take them with a grain of salt. There are no absolutes even in the face of convincing video. In NASA certainly a racing incident. In PCA a 13/13. Is that because PCA really wants to assign blame or because PCA really wants to discourage contact? Anyone watching F1 with Ocon and Perez?
09-01-2017, 12:02 PM
#74
Well, that was Perez simply being a dick, and not for the first time.
Agreed.
Originally Posted by mglobe
This incident happened in a NASA race, not PCA club racing. We should be considering those rules, and not PCA's in evaluating it. You may not like those rules and as a result choose to not race with NASA, or you may prefer the NASA rules to PCA. Either way, it is the NASA rules that apply.
Based on qualifying times, there was a 3 second per lap differential between the S2K and the SPB. The two cars are in a completely different race. SPB should definitely know that long before the turn, and should know there is a train of cars coming, not just one. Furthermore SPB is at the moment racing no one. He has nothing to lose by yielding, and everything to lose by assuming that it is "his" corner.
SPB leaves the door wide open coming into the turn. If he wants the turn, he can clearly indicate it to the following cars by taking a shallower entry. Not sure why he would want the turn given the facts above, but it is his choice if he wants to take it. I doubt very much that had he taken a more defensive entry to the turn the S2k would have gone for the pass.
Racing incident 70% SPB fault.
Based on qualifying times, there was a 3 second per lap differential between the S2K and the SPB. The two cars are in a completely different race. SPB should definitely know that long before the turn, and should know there is a train of cars coming, not just one. Furthermore SPB is at the moment racing no one. He has nothing to lose by yielding, and everything to lose by assuming that it is "his" corner.
SPB leaves the door wide open coming into the turn. If he wants the turn, he can clearly indicate it to the following cars by taking a shallower entry. Not sure why he would want the turn given the facts above, but it is his choice if he wants to take it. I doubt very much that had he taken a more defensive entry to the turn the S2k would have gone for the pass.
Racing incident 70% SPB fault.
09-01-2017, 08:33 PM
#75
Addict
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This incident happened in a NASA race, not PCA club racing. We should be considering those rules, and not PCA's in evaluating it. You may not like those rules and as a result choose to not race with NASA, or you may prefer the NASA rules to PCA. Either way, it is the NASA rules that apply.
Based on qualifying times, there was a 3 second per lap differential between the S2K and the SPB. The two cars are in a completely different race. SPB should definitely know that long before the turn, and should know there is a train of cars coming, not just one. Furthermore SPB is at the moment racing no one. He has nothing to lose by yielding, and everything to lose by assuming that it is "his" corner.
SPB leaves the door wide open coming into the turn. If he wants the turn, he can clearly indicate it to the following cars by taking a shallower entry. Not sure why he would want the turn given the facts above, but it is his choice if he wants to take it. I doubt very much that had he taken a more defensive entry to the turn the S2k would have gone for the pass.
Racing incident 70% SPB fault.
Based on qualifying times, there was a 3 second per lap differential between the S2K and the SPB. The two cars are in a completely different race. SPB should definitely know that long before the turn, and should know there is a train of cars coming, not just one. Furthermore SPB is at the moment racing no one. He has nothing to lose by yielding, and everything to lose by assuming that it is "his" corner.
SPB leaves the door wide open coming into the turn. If he wants the turn, he can clearly indicate it to the following cars by taking a shallower entry. Not sure why he would want the turn given the facts above, but it is his choice if he wants to take it. I doubt very much that had he taken a more defensive entry to the turn the S2k would have gone for the pass.
Racing incident 70% SPB fault.