Fast and Furious Paul Walker killed in CGT
01-03-2014, 07:12 PM
#346
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Thanks ChristianR. There seems to be a constant source of confusion that runs through many comments on this post: in trying to describe the accident, I wasn't trying to assess fault or blame or prescribe what they should have done differently (you seem to have the monopoly on that, but I'll let others compete with you for that space). I am only trying to understand the accident as it occurred. An understanding of all the elements that led to such a result. It doesn't mean I was trying to excuse their behaviour (or even needed to touch on that subject) since prima facia a 100mph+ on that corner is largely indefensible.
On a totally separate note, I must say that with all this talk of a race track being the only place you should be able to enjoy your supercar, thank god I live in Europe and next to Germany we do have many places where you can enjoy a beautiful autobahn at over 150 mph or blistering long fast country roads, etc. In case no one really wants to state the obvious truth (drum roll please): race tracks are dangerous! You are constantly having to massively accelerate, then brake, then corner, then accelerate, etc. Many hugely enjoy this -- but then they are in roll cages, have special seat belts on, fire retardant suits and a helmet, etc. They do not dress this way when they are taking their car down a long deserted road in the countryside (well, in general not). Why? Because racetracks constantly force you to push the limits of the car: they are dangerous! Try riding a sidecar in a Formula 1 someday and tell me if you don't want to throw up. Sure, one can say that they are not endangering anyone else other than some other guy on the racetrack, but that doesn't change the fact of just how challenging racetracks can be...
On a totally separate note, I must say that with all this talk of a race track being the only place you should be able to enjoy your supercar, thank god I live in Europe and next to Germany we do have many places where you can enjoy a beautiful autobahn at over 150 mph or blistering long fast country roads, etc. In case no one really wants to state the obvious truth (drum roll please): race tracks are dangerous! You are constantly having to massively accelerate, then brake, then corner, then accelerate, etc. Many hugely enjoy this -- but then they are in roll cages, have special seat belts on, fire retardant suits and a helmet, etc. They do not dress this way when they are taking their car down a long deserted road in the countryside (well, in general not). Why? Because racetracks constantly force you to push the limits of the car: they are dangerous! Try riding a sidecar in a Formula 1 someday and tell me if you don't want to throw up. Sure, one can say that they are not endangering anyone else other than some other guy on the racetrack, but that doesn't change the fact of just how challenging racetracks can be...
01-03-2014, 10:00 PM
#347
Nordschleife Master
Coroner: Car carrying Paul Walker going 100-plus mph
By Alan Duke and Joe Sterling, CNN
updated 8:01 PM EST, Fri January 3, 2014
Los Angeles (CNN) -- The Porsche carrying "Fast & Furious" star Paul Walker was speeding at more than 100 miles per hour when it crashed in November, killing the actor and a friend, according to the final coroner's report on the deaths. The 15-page report released Friday by the Los Angeles County coroner's office answered several questions that had been the subject of speculation about how Walker and racing team partner Roger Rodas died.
The two men apparently did not live long after the high-performance 2005 Porsche Carrera GT, which was traveling at "approximately 100+ mph," slammed into a light post and tree and burst into flames, the report said. Walker, who shot to fame as star of the high-octane street racing franchise "Fast & Furious," was in the passenger seat of the car driven by Rodas. Walker, 40, and Rodas, 38, left a charity event at a car shop co-owned by the men to take a ride in an office park in the community of Valencia in Santa Clarita, about 30 miles north of Hollywood. The crash happened a few hundred yards away on a wide street.
"For unknown reasons, the driver lost control of the vehicle, and the vehicle partially spun around, and began to travel in a southeast direction," the coroner's report said. "The vehicle then struck a sidewalk and the driver's side of the vehicle struck a tree and then a light post. The force of those collisions caused the vehicle to spin 180 degrees, and it continued to travel in an easterly direction. The passenger side of the vehicle then struck a tree and the vehicle burst into flames."
Video obtained by CNN from a security camera posted on a building on the opposite side of the street from the crash suggests that the fire that engulfed the Porsche did not erupt until about a minute after the car crashed. In the video, which does not show the car, black smoke is seen rising from the crash scene 60 seconds after the light pole and a tree fall. Smoke is faintly visible above the scene after one minute, followed by a heavy plume of black smoke after two minutes.
The autopsy revealed "scant soot" in Walker's trachea, suggesting his life ended before the smoke and fire engulfed the car. The actor's body was badly burned "and in a pugilistic stance. His right wrist was fractured and his left arm was fractured," the report said. Rodas was also described as in "a pugilistic" -- or defensive -- position. Walker suffered fractures of his left jawbone, collarbone, pelvis, ribs and spine, the report said. Rodas "rapidly died of severe blunt head, neck and chest trauma," the report said.
Investigators from the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department met with engineers from Porsche to analyze the data-retrieval system in the car's computer, the department said last month. That system is used to shed light on the car's speed, throttle opening, air bag deployment, seat belt use and, possibly, other information from the time of the crash.
The coroner's report did not conclude whether the men were wearing seat belts. Walker's death came during a Thanksgiving break in filming of "Fast and Furious 7," forcing a halt in the production. Universal Studios announced last month that the movie will be completed using scenes already filmed by Walker, but the release will be delayed from this summer until April 10, 2015
By Alan Duke and Joe Sterling, CNN
updated 8:01 PM EST, Fri January 3, 2014
Los Angeles (CNN) -- The Porsche carrying "Fast & Furious" star Paul Walker was speeding at more than 100 miles per hour when it crashed in November, killing the actor and a friend, according to the final coroner's report on the deaths. The 15-page report released Friday by the Los Angeles County coroner's office answered several questions that had been the subject of speculation about how Walker and racing team partner Roger Rodas died.
The two men apparently did not live long after the high-performance 2005 Porsche Carrera GT, which was traveling at "approximately 100+ mph," slammed into a light post and tree and burst into flames, the report said. Walker, who shot to fame as star of the high-octane street racing franchise "Fast & Furious," was in the passenger seat of the car driven by Rodas. Walker, 40, and Rodas, 38, left a charity event at a car shop co-owned by the men to take a ride in an office park in the community of Valencia in Santa Clarita, about 30 miles north of Hollywood. The crash happened a few hundred yards away on a wide street.
"For unknown reasons, the driver lost control of the vehicle, and the vehicle partially spun around, and began to travel in a southeast direction," the coroner's report said. "The vehicle then struck a sidewalk and the driver's side of the vehicle struck a tree and then a light post. The force of those collisions caused the vehicle to spin 180 degrees, and it continued to travel in an easterly direction. The passenger side of the vehicle then struck a tree and the vehicle burst into flames."
Video obtained by CNN from a security camera posted on a building on the opposite side of the street from the crash suggests that the fire that engulfed the Porsche did not erupt until about a minute after the car crashed. In the video, which does not show the car, black smoke is seen rising from the crash scene 60 seconds after the light pole and a tree fall. Smoke is faintly visible above the scene after one minute, followed by a heavy plume of black smoke after two minutes.
The autopsy revealed "scant soot" in Walker's trachea, suggesting his life ended before the smoke and fire engulfed the car. The actor's body was badly burned "and in a pugilistic stance. His right wrist was fractured and his left arm was fractured," the report said. Rodas was also described as in "a pugilistic" -- or defensive -- position. Walker suffered fractures of his left jawbone, collarbone, pelvis, ribs and spine, the report said. Rodas "rapidly died of severe blunt head, neck and chest trauma," the report said.
Investigators from the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department met with engineers from Porsche to analyze the data-retrieval system in the car's computer, the department said last month. That system is used to shed light on the car's speed, throttle opening, air bag deployment, seat belt use and, possibly, other information from the time of the crash.
The coroner's report did not conclude whether the men were wearing seat belts. Walker's death came during a Thanksgiving break in filming of "Fast and Furious 7," forcing a halt in the production. Universal Studios announced last month that the movie will be completed using scenes already filmed by Walker, but the release will be delayed from this summer until April 10, 2015
01-03-2014, 10:09 PM
#349
01-04-2014, 08:03 AM
#351
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"Innocent Bystander (Webster Dictionary Politically Correct Driving Terminology of 2014): 40-year old man who has enjoyed muscle cars his whole life and wins leading role in "Fast & Furious" television series (chiefly showing cars driven at extreme speeds in dangerous and challenging ways) who performs many of his own stunts (and was said to be the best driver of the cast by the set's driving instructor) jumps into the passenger seat of a Porsche Carrera GT (reputed to be his ultimate personal favourite car) as it was being backed up into a garage by one of his longtime best friends (and serious driving enthusiast who has participated in many amateur races) and reportedly tells him "Hey, let's go for a drive." Both very tragically die in a horrible crash just a little while later. See photo below for further clarification on innocent bystander.
http://uk.movies.yahoo.com/photos/paul-walker-last-photo-photo-1385982621477.html"
PS. (NO disrespect to Paul Walker; myself and most here would've probably done the same thing after a long charity event). And none of us would have thought of ourselves as an "innocent bystander" either.
http://uk.movies.yahoo.com/photos/paul-walker-last-photo-photo-1385982621477.html"
PS. (NO disrespect to Paul Walker; myself and most here would've probably done the same thing after a long charity event). And none of us would have thought of ourselves as an "innocent bystander" either.
01-04-2014, 12:16 PM
#352
Great post, Stephen. I like your approach and list of multiple contributing factors.
I will add to the old tire point my personal experience with PS2's. On my far more pedestrian cayman S (sorely missed), the rear PS2's seemingly stopped gripping while only 3-4 years old and at 50-60% treadwear. The rear started kicking out on a regular basis and I had to replace them. They also - always - want heat in them. Much more than any other street performance tire I have driven. The list includes: michelin PS1, michelin PSS, bridgestone potenza re040, re050a, re050a runflat, conti dw. All in all, not a tire that I want to go back to.
I will add to the old tire point my personal experience with PS2's. On my far more pedestrian cayman S (sorely missed), the rear PS2's seemingly stopped gripping while only 3-4 years old and at 50-60% treadwear. The rear started kicking out on a regular basis and I had to replace them. They also - always - want heat in them. Much more than any other street performance tire I have driven. The list includes: michelin PS1, michelin PSS, bridgestone potenza re040, re050a, re050a runflat, conti dw. All in all, not a tire that I want to go back to.
Coming back to my earlier post (and now responding to mousecatcher's brief, but rather unhelpful description of it: "**** happens"): in my experience, accidents usually happen when several unexpected things come together for a moment in time which cause the ultimate mishap. We can look at many Formula One accidents to see this (including Senna's). Having looked at all the evidence presented here (and great job guys here on figuring out exactly how the car went into the collision -- precisely as the coroner described the trajectory of the accident), I believe there were probably several contributing factors to the accident. First, there is the obvious one of speed. Second, they had very old tires on the car (uuggghhhh). Third, there was these horrible safety dividers on the road which would have a been a nightmare to your rear wheels at the rotational speed they were going. Fourth, there was the horrifically high curb which they hit sideways (guessing that you become essentially airborne after hitting it and have no more stopping power), and then lastly, the most unfortunate location of their crash right on top of the lamp post and then the two trees. I am not saying that if you removed anyone of these (except for the extreme speed), that the accident would not have happened -- but all of these I believe were most likely contributing factors to the accident (to varying degrees). Some were undoubtedly under their "control": the speed, the tires and the driving of the car. Others were more unforeseen: the big bumpy road dividers and the scene of the crash itself. Anyhow, it takes <7 seconds to get to a 100mph, so I am not sure how apparent their speed was to them as the tragic accident unfolded. They may have been joking around a bit and so the driver's concentration may have not been at its peak -- it's interesting how they made the corner, but lost it coming out of it somewhere near those damn white bumps crossing back into their lane (unless I am mistaken)... Anyhow, our condolences to these tragic victims and their loved ones.
01-04-2014, 01:38 PM
#355
Race Director
Ultimately, though, it was the ridiculous speed for a public road, that is the cause. None of the other stuff matters (tire age, speed bumps, curb height, yada, yada, yada). Even if they had been 20 or 30 mph over the posted speed limit,they would have been fine. But, 70, 80, 90 mph over the posted limit? Well, I don't really consider that to be an accident, just a very poor lapse in judgement. The investigation results have simply verified what was more than obvious from day one.
01-04-2014, 03:00 PM
#356
It was pretty clear from day one that they were doing over 100 mph on urban street. Both had a history of driving very fast on public roads. Just a matter of odds that these punks would end up wrapped around a tree. Plenty of videos of mr walker doing 100 plus on city streets That's a bit different than high speed on an autobahn
01-04-2014, 05:27 PM
#357
Three Wheelin'
It was pretty clear from day one that they were doing over 100 mph on urban street. Both had a history of driving very fast on public roads. Just a matter of odds that these punks would end up wrapped around a tree. Plenty of videos of mr walker doing 100 plus on city streets That's a bit different than high speed on an autobahn
01-04-2014, 05:35 PM
#358
Three Wheelin'
The investigation concluded the obvious. Anyone with a grain of common sense would know that speed was the only factor in that crash without even seeing the pictures. Supercar, two guys who loved driving fast, residential street.
We do all the same ****, sometimes it catches up with us. RIP to both guys.
We do all the same ****, sometimes it catches up with us. RIP to both guys.
01-04-2014, 05:42 PM
#359
The investigation concluded the obvious. Anyone with a grain of common sense would know that speed was the only factor in that crash without even seeing the pictures. Supercar, two guys who loved driving fast, residential street.
We do all the same ****, sometimes it catches up with us. RIP to both guys.
We do all the same ****, sometimes it catches up with us. RIP to both guys.
and it was my fault........not swamp gas/obama,ims,rms,p/s fluid etc
01-04-2014, 06:24 PM
#360
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Totally agree with ChristianR as to the description of their characters. I know someone who knew Paul (professionally) and he was by all accounts a very decent and generous man. No need to disparage them here as "punks" just because they loved the thrill of fast driving. I was going to come back with a longer post in response to a few others, but don't think it serves any more purpose here. When we have to seriously contend whether Paul was an "innocent bystander" or that fast cars should only be allowed on the race track (and then once safely quarantined there, they will be viewed as too dangerous after some horrible accident), we will all end up like THX1138.
These guys didn't go on a suicide mission, they were going at an enormous but not unfamiliar speed when they made the corner and then lost control (probably as they were applying power to the rear to gain traction going forward out of the turn). I personally believe that had a few "minor" things had been different they might have survived -- and definitely believe they would have survived had they not ended up SIDEWAYS hitting that crash site. BUT no proof and I know how hard it is to catch the Carrera GT when it starts to spin (which I personally believe here was initiated here by a combination of the bad tires hitting those big, semi-spherical and slippery bumps). We have all been lucky (which we sometimes give scant credit to) and unlucky (which we curse as though some evil fiend came down to purposely punish us). Lady Luck can be cruel or kind -- but at the speed they were going in that environment, you are clearly tipping the scales against you... But I am very glad they lived an extremely productive, fruitful and adventurous life.
These guys didn't go on a suicide mission, they were going at an enormous but not unfamiliar speed when they made the corner and then lost control (probably as they were applying power to the rear to gain traction going forward out of the turn). I personally believe that had a few "minor" things had been different they might have survived -- and definitely believe they would have survived had they not ended up SIDEWAYS hitting that crash site. BUT no proof and I know how hard it is to catch the Carrera GT when it starts to spin (which I personally believe here was initiated here by a combination of the bad tires hitting those big, semi-spherical and slippery bumps). We have all been lucky (which we sometimes give scant credit to) and unlucky (which we curse as though some evil fiend came down to purposely punish us). Lady Luck can be cruel or kind -- but at the speed they were going in that environment, you are clearly tipping the scales against you... But I am very glad they lived an extremely productive, fruitful and adventurous life.