http://www.9tro.com/features/new-car...basic-instinct

 

That was a nice write up.

 

Thanks for posting navanoD! I'm far from an engine guy, but it might be worth noting that the gt4 peak horsepower is reported 700rpm higher than the Spyder. It would be interesting to see what the hp is for the Spyder at the same (7,400?) rpm. I just have a hard time believing the 10hp difference exists, or that Porsche went to the trouble to slightly detune the Spyder -- a small production car. Not that it really matters.....

 

This has been a subject of much discussion for a long time ... *All* Boxsters make less hp at a lower rpm than the equivalent Cayman; it is not just true for the 3.8L variants. It is the primary reason why I, along with many others, believe that Porsche purposely detunes engines for marketing reasons. I also believe this is why the 3.4L and 3.8L engines each make more power in a 991 than in a 981. Any other explanation implies a level of incompetence that I’m not willing to ascribe to Porsche engineering.

 

Toque is identical to 6700, then the diverge. It's detuned.

Porsche detunes, they just try hard to avoid admitting it quite that directly. Every Boxster is 10 hp lower than its Cayman equivalent with identical parts. The Macan Turbo engine is mechanically identical to the Cayenne GTS engine but makes 40 hp less. A decade ago they detune in hardware- exhaust restrictions on the Cayman to limit power, etc. Now they generally simply do it in software- it's cheaper, and the Siemens ECU encryption is strong enough that they can.

 

I am not sure why detuning is such a bad deal or causing consternation. Porsche has every right and reason to define and maintain the pecking order of their product portfolio. It is carefully orchestrated. There is a model for every price point/performance/driving/styling expectations. Silly or not, Boxsters getting 10hp lower than Cayman counterpart is a non-factor for either street or track driving (unless you are really chasing the lap time). Similarly, it's a moot point for hp/torque #s at specific RPMs. I actually prefer power peaking at higher RPM.

 

Because they pretend they don’t do it. There’s always some bull$h!t story.

I’m also annoyed that they did extra work to give me something worse. I couldn't care less about any corporation's product portfolio when they don't offer the choices I want. But the dishonesty makes it even worse.

 

Well, they dance around it, anyway... But they will, and have, admitted they detune.

Here's the thing though: Porsche uses a value based pricing model, so the more you want something, the more they need to charge. If they didn't they wouldn't sell their more expensive models. Yet the cheaper models can't exist without the more expensive ones- the modular 9A1 engine is cheaper because it's a family with 95% of the parts shared. Costs are calculated across the family, not on an individual basis. Individually the more expensive models in effect subsidize the cheaper ones. It lets Porsche make good money on sports cars, where many manufactures can't and won't build them at all. We know Honda can build great sports cars. They don't build many for a reason.

If Porsche charged more they could give you more (power). Is that a trade you're willing to make? The Spyder is already arguably the best cost/ performance value Porsche has at the moment, sitting alongside the GT4 on this graph:



It's a hard reality. If Porsche admitted it directly would you feel better about it? Or would you just complain that they de-tuned and ask for the extra power for free? Because at the end of the day it's not free...

 

No sure why you are so worked up about what they do with the Boxster line. You have one in your avatar.

I do not think Porsche misleads anyone about their power figures, in fact, for many years every car review you read mentions how conservative they are on power figures. If you semantically what to call it detuning, okay, but the fact is they are giving you X HP for Y dollars.

As Pete showed in his graph, there is a lot of value (in the Porsche world anyway) for the GT4 and the Boxster Spyder. Would I like 25 more HP in the Spyder, you bet, but if your getting it from Porsche that's about $17K.

So a question, for the price of a 2016 Boxster Spyder, what other car would you buy instead?

 

Yes dishonesty is not a trait I find appealing - integrity is where it is at for me. Maybe I'm weird, but that's how I roll.

 

Dance around, bull$h!t; now we’re splitting hairs. If you have run across an instance where Porsche calls one of their engines purposely detuned, it would be interesting for me to see. Since you seem to personally interact with some key Porsche personnel, your impression of what Porsche communicates to their customers may differ from mine. I only get to read what they release in public.

This is a nice graph. I believe I even linked to it (or an alternate version of it) during previous discussions. It was a useful reference for guessing where Porsche would price the GT4 before it was announced.

But from an end user standpoint, it is somewhat irrelevant. Just because you can draw a nice line through the hp/lb vs. $ graph does not imply that you can actually move from one hp/lb datpoint to another just by varying $. The reason why we are even talking about this (now far off-topic) subject is because the Spyder produces 10hp less than the GT4. And even though the Spyder and GT4 both fall reasonably close to the line on the graph, you cannot add the extra 10hp to the Spyder simply by giving Porsche more money.

I’m sure there’s somebody at Porsche who believes the extra 10hp is vital for product differentiation and has some rationalization about how the target Boxster customer demographic doesn’t care about the 10hp, purist philosphy of the car, GT4 is for racing, blablabla, but I don’t really care about any of that. Give me the 10hp and put it on the bill.

 

I’m not sure I follow your logic here. It is *only* Boxster buyers who would complain about this, since they’re the ones who are unnecessarily down on power. Unless you think that some Cayman owners are mad they couldn’t give up 10hp for a $500 discount.

The Boxster in my Avatar has a BGB 3.8 conversion. It is a great car, and BGB did excellent work on it, but I have a little chip on my shoulder because I had to jump through a lot of hoops to get the car Porsche should have built in the first place.

I agree, the Spyder has a reasonable price in Porsche’s product lineup. I’m not sure I can live with that roof, and that might have been a dealbreaker for me. I’m not sure I see the rationale behind weight savings for that roof – I would have preferred that Porsche not detune the engine instead. As far as Spyder alternatives, if I had not done the BGB 3.8 conversion, I agree that options are limited. But I didn't *need* to buy a new sports car; if there isn't a new one I like, I can just keep my old one...

 

What if engine isn't detuned from gt4 and they just make the published numbers fit their marketing needs?

 

They don't use the word "detuned". They do say that they "tuned" a lower power engine. But what's the difference? You've got the Mecan Turbo at 400 hp, the Cayenne S at 420 hp, and the Cayenne GTS at 440 hp. All use a mechanically identical engine, and Porsche doesn't hide that fact. Tuned, detuned; software changed, power is different. They didn't "detune", instead they worked hard to "find" 20 extra hp... that they'd previously worked hard to lose in the first place.

True. In the Carrera you can (powerkit). Here you can't. However even if you could I'd try to talk you out of it: 10 hp up top... on a good day maybe I could tell the difference in the way it rushes to redline. Side by side you'd tell in the higher gears. But in the way the car drives, it's not materially different than if it had the extra 10 hp- remember there's only a difference between 6700 and ~7600 rpm, and the average difference across that range is averages 5 hp, or 1.3%. Meanwhile the Spyder is 2% lighter than the GT4, and that difference works across the entire rev range.

So Porsche has succeeded in altering perception, ie the Spyder is "slower" than its more expensive rivals when you look at the headline numbers. Hence they don't need to charge more for it. The reality, however, is almost certainly that the quicker car until you get to high RPM and the GT4's ram-air kicks in, and the difference is small enough that you're unlikely to feel it anyway. It's about as close as you'll get to getting something for nothing with Porsche. Meanwhile Porsche would need to charge you what, $3k for a 10 hp "powerkit" you can't feel? Like I said, I'd try to talk you out of it- get a ring and pinion instead, or maybe a set of wheels and sticky tires...

Sure, it sucks when someone takes your cheese. But in this case I'm not so sure much cheese is actually gone. But they do need you to think it's gone, and they can't lie to you, exactly. Which is pretty amusing when you think about it...

 

Amusing or annoying, depending on your mood, I guess.

As far as moving the cheese goes, I’m not even sure they’re doing that. The whole exercise (to me) seems confusing and somewhat pointless. Charging me $3k to get 10hp on a Boxster would be moving the cheese, and I’d be ok with that. Charging me $3k to get 10hp but then taking away the opening roof is ... not really moving the cheese. I don’t think people make the choice between a Spyder and the GT4 (or any kind of Boxster vs. Cayman) based on the small differences in hp (or price). So then what is the point in creating this small difference in the first place? It doesn’t really influence my decision on which Porsche to pick.

What it really does is make me question whether I want to pick a Porsche at all. Do I really want to buy a roadster from a company that clearly treats roadsters as second-class?