When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
for the code being discussed on this thread - yes car behaves normally and runs just fine - but not all CEL’s are this issue…
I guess what I'm saying is if the car is running normally and a software bug (only) is lighting up the CEL, what is the big deal? Just drive the car until they come up with a fix? Or are affected owners worried that a separate engine problem might arise generating a separate CEL command (to light up on the dash) that will then be ignored because the owner thinks the light is related to the software problem?
All this talk of lemon laws, demands to buy the car back, threatening legal action all over a dash light that has been determined by the dealer and the manufacturer to be a result of a software bug and not a true engine fault seems a bit much. Especially given that one owner has said that if he charges overnight with 110V as opposed to a fast charge with 240v the problem doesn't appear. Just my $0.02 worth.
I guess what I'm saying is if the car is running normally and a software bug (only) is lighting up the CEL, what is the big deal? Just drive the car until they come up with a fix? Or are affected owners worried that a separate engine problem might arise generating a separate CEL command (to light up on the dash) that will then be ignored because the owner thinks the light is related to the software problem?
All this talk of lemon laws, demands to buy the car back, threatening legal action all over a dash light that has been determined by the dealer and the manufacturer to be a result of a software bug and not a true engine fault seems a bit much. Especially given that one owner has said that if he charges overnight with 110V as opposed to a fast charge with 240v the problem doesn't appear. Just my $0.02 worth.
It's the separate real problem being masked that is the major concern. For me at least. How would someone know without taking it to dealership? You can self diagnose with OBD but that's not the same as a trained Porsche tech running a full diagnosis. Assuming we all get desensitized to a CEL, when a real problem arises and car is damaged as a result then that creates bigger problems. I don't want to be a situation going back and forth with Porsche on warranty claims. Moreover, the manual clearly states to bring the car to dealership if CEL comes on. Same with my Service rep who has said to bring the car in since they don't definitively know what is causing the problem. Software is just a guess. So it's a non trivial amount of time being spent with each occurrence. Not everyone lives 20 mins away from a Porsche dealership - it's a 1hr commute each way in my case.
"What is the big deal for a light on a dash" isn't the correct bar for a brand like Porsche. They should just fix it. Period.
It's the separate real problem being masked that is the major concern. For me at least. How would someone know without taking it to dealership? You can self diagnose with OBD but that's not the same as a trained Porsche tech running a full diagnosis. Assuming we all get desensitized to a CEL, when a real problem arises and car is damaged as a result then that creates bigger problems. I don't want to be a situation going back and forth with Porsche on warranty claims. Moreover, the manual clearly states to bring the car to dealership if CEL comes on. Same with my Service rep who has said to bring the car in since they don't definitively know what is causing the problem. Software is just a guess. So it's a non trivial amount of time being spent with each occurrence. Not everyone lives 20 mins away from a Porsche dealership - it's a 1hr commute each way in my case.
"What is the big deal for a light on a dash" isn't the correct bar for a brand like Porsche. They should just fix it. Period.
Absolutely! and it is taking way too long for a permanent fix which is why I suggested everyone with this issue to report it to NHTSA to put more pressure on Porsche to fix it and this will have no impact on lemon options
took it to dealer again and here are the work details.
so definitely the same U012200 PSM comm fault another user here got. It’s not persistent as you can see from below. Fault was inactive when they scanned and PSM was working correctly.
dealer indicated PAG is aware of issue but no resolution yet.
Got another confirmation call today from service rep that Porsche is definitely aware of the issue now. My local dealer has 2 owners (myself included) with the same problem. Fix is arriving "soon". They've prioritized our cars for recall fix when it's ready.
Can also confirm safe to clear code from dealership. Does not impact drive-ability.
I guess what I'm saying is if the car is running normally and a software bug (only) is lighting up the CEL, what is the big deal? Just drive the car until they come up with a fix? Or are affected owners worried that a separate engine problem might arise generating a separate CEL command (to light up on the dash) that will then be ignored because the owner thinks the light is related to the software problem?
All this talk of lemon laws, demands to buy the car back, threatening legal action all over a dash light that has been determined by the dealer and the manufacturer to be a result of a software bug and not a true engine fault seems a bit much. Especially given that one owner has said that if he charges overnight with 110V as opposed to a fast charge with 240v the problem doesn't appear. Just my $0.02 worth.
CEL is an automatic emissions test failure - and the car is unsellable in this condition to the next buyer without disclosure - functionally it’s not a big deal - from teh car being evaluated by other parties the CEL is a major concern and devalues the vehicle - Porsche needs to fix this.
Dealer resets the CEL then don’t plug it in and trade it. But yes, Porsche should eventually find a fix for it.
Like what @daveo4porsche said, you must disclose the CEL condition before you sell it. If you let the dealer reset it, then avoid charging it so the light doesn't come back on and then sell it without disclosing the condition, you are opening yourself up to a lawsuit. All the new owner would have to do is prove that you were aware of the condition and did not disclose it during the sale. A records check from the dealer would prove that you were aware of the condition and intentionally hid it to inflate the value of the vehicle. You may not like this, but it is how this sort of stuff works.
Like what @daveo4porsche said, you must disclose the CEL condition before you sell it. If you let the dealer reset it, then avoid charging it so the light doesn't come back on and then sell it without disclosing the condition, you are opening yourself up to a lawsuit. All the new owner would have to do is prove that you were aware of the condition and did not disclose it during the sale. A records check from the dealer would prove that you were aware of the condition and intentionally hid it to inflate the value of the vehicle. You may not like this, but it is how this sort of stuff works.
Sell the vehicle "as is" and have the purchaser sign off that he has done his own inspection of the vehicle and isn't relying on any representation or omission on the part of the vendor. Or leave the light on, sell it and let the next guy worry about it. I don't know how things work where you all live, but in my jurisdiction, I can sell the vehicle with or without a safety certificate or smog certificate. In any event, I'm sure there is someone out there who will buy it with the light on.
Or have a lawyer write to Porsche and tell them that unless the vehicle can be operated by the owner with the CEL light on, with no impact to the owner should a second fault arise that causes damage to the vehicle, Porsche must take the vehicle back. Personally, I'd just wait for the fix and ignore the light. Has anyone got a list of faults that can result in a light up of the CEL?
This is crazy. Why is anyone selling a car that is under warranty that manufacturer cannot fix and clearly qualified for a lemon law buy back? Here is what you should do:
1. Go to google.com
2. Look for lemon law attorney
3. Pick the one with most 5 star reviews
4. Free consultation. They collect your info
5. Sit and watch what happens
You dont have to lift a finger, they will do all the paperwork for you and 99% probability that it will not go to court and you will have a settlement in front of you in 30 days. All attorney fees are paid by the manufacturer. Cost to you is 0. All you have to do is 30 seconds of googling and 2 minutes of answering questions on the phone.
This is not legal advice. I am not a lawyer and obviously you should do what you think is right. But if this were my car and this happened to me, I would do exactly as I said above.
All cars show CEL when the ignition is switched on and the vehicle engine is not running. Every car I own including Porsche's own GT3RS does this. Its a CEL readiness monitor that clears out once the engine is running. There are numerous checks car performs such as oxygen sensors, the fuel tank evap, etc.
This is crazy. Why is anyone selling a car that is under warranty that manufacturer cannot fix and clearly qualified for a lemon law buy back? Here is what you should do:
1. Go to google.com
2. Look for lemon law attorney
3. Pick the one with most 5 star reviews
4. Free consultation. They collect your info
5. Sit and watch what happens
You dont have to lift a finger, they will do all the paperwork for you and 99% probability that it will not go to court and you will have a settlement in front of you in 30 days. All attorney fees are paid by the manufacturer. Cost to you is 0. All you have to do is 30 seconds of googling and 2 minutes of answering questions on the phone.
This is not legal advice. I am not a lawyer and obviously you should do what you think is right. But if this were my car and this happened to me, I would do exactly as I said above.
If you live in a jurisdiction with Lemon laws. Anyway the car is drivable. It just has a light on while Porsche looks for a software fix.
If you live in a jurisdiction with Lemon laws. Anyway the car is drivable. It just has a light on while Porsche looks for a software fix.
Well, yes - the assumption under my post was there is a lemon law in the state the vehicle is registered.
Also, the car does not have to be not drivable or have some major mechanical malfunction for you to go down this path. The Lemon Law is pretty broadly defined and it includes cosmetic issues as well as mechanical issues as well as any other issues that would diminish the value of the car. This argument applies to practically anything from a LCD screen that doesnt function to A/C that cannot maintain temperature to TPMS malfunction to engine failure.
There is a lot of misconception around what you are entitled and in the first 24 months after the purchase date of a brand new vehicle, you are actually entitled to A LOT. After 24 months, you are still entitled to a resolution but it becomes mostly a cash settlement and buyback is no longer an option.
I am not trying to provide legal advice here, I am just summarizing what you or the other posters could research and read from google. I have also personal experiences having gone through this. If your car made 10 visits to a dealer and they havent resolved the issue, it doesnt matter how many days it sat there - it could 2 hours each visit, does not matter. It also doesnt matter if something as basic as weather stripping/seal around the door that cant stick and leaks water is failing. The law doesnt distinguish between these issue and the manufacturer almost always comes to a settlement before court.
Well, yes - the assumption under my post was there is a lemon law in the state the vehicle is registered.
Also, the car does not have to be not drivable or have some major mechanical malfunction for you to go down this path. The Lemon Law is pretty broadly defined and it includes cosmetic issues as well as mechanical issues as well as any other issues that would diminish the value of the car. This argument applies to practically anything from a LCD screen that doesnt function to A/C that cannot maintain temperature to TPMS malfunction to engine failure.
There is a lot of misconception around what you are entitled and in the first 24 months after the purchase date of a brand new vehicle, you are actually entitled to A LOT. After 24 months, you are still entitled to a resolution but it becomes mostly a cash settlement and buyback is no longer an option.
I am not trying to provide legal advice here, I am just summarizing what you or the other posters could research and read from google. I have also personal experiences having gone through this. If your car made 10 visits to a dealer and they havent resolved the issue, it doesnt matter how many days it sat there - it could 2 hours each visit, does not matter. It also doesnt matter if something as basic as weather stripping/seal around the door that cant stick and leaks water is failing. The law doesnt distinguish between these issue and the manufacturer almost always comes to a settlement before court.
Without a lemon law, you are left with contract law, which is essentially the warranty. You could try arguing the vehicle isn't of merchantable quality (not fit for the purpose for which it was sold) if you can't drive it, but I don't think you can make the same argument for a software fault that throws a light up on the dash. But it sounds like you have some expertise in this area so I'll bow out.
Without a lemon law, you are left with contract law, which is essentially the warranty. You could try arguing the vehicle isn't of merchantable quality (not fit for the purpose for which it was sold) if you can't drive it, but I don't think you can make the same argument for a software fault that throws a light up on the dash. But it sounds like you have some expertise in this area so I'll bow out.
I'll argue in that case that I am unable to get market value/fair value for my vehicle if I want to sell it because of the Check Engine Light. I'll further argue that the car may not be sold legally in certain states (some states will not allow a car to be sold with a CEL - Regardless of the reason). I'll simply say I paid X amount for a vehicle whose value without this problem is Y right now, with this problem the value is Y - Z% and I'll ask them to either give me a car without the defect, allow me to keep the car but pay me Z, or take the car back and make me whole.
Yes I do have experience in this area but I'd rather not discuss the specifics
09-22-2021, 09:43 AM
