Diesel Cayenne and VW emission issue
10-27-2016, 10:12 AM
#1861
Moderator !x4
Keep in mind they defrauded the consumer with their cheating. They should offer a buyback regardless of any fix. They should allow their customer to decide. If they can fix them with minimal impact, then they should have no problem reselling the ones they buyback in the open marketplace. If they are buying them at clean trade in pricing, they can probably even make a profit on them, right?
10-27-2016, 11:34 AM
#1862
RL Community Team
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10-27-2016, 11:44 AM
#1863
Keep in mind they defrauded the consumer with their cheating. They should offer a buyback regardless of any fix. They should allow their customer to decide. If they can fix them with minimal impact, then they should have no problem reselling the ones they buyback in the open marketplace. If they are buying them at clean trade in pricing, they can probably even make a profit on them, right?
I demand a buyback is just pointless.Secondly, IF they can get a fix approved that doesn't impact performance and fuel economy in a meaningful way, just how have you been harmed? If you haven't been harmed, what grounds do you have for compensation?
If you want to claim resale value as how you have been harmed then we can make arguments on both sides (e.g. you never sold it so there was no loss vs you didn't sell it because of the potential loss), but we can talk about the numbers. In my case my 2013 had a value of 45-50k at the start of this mess. The low point that I saw it was 35k and now I see that it appears to have rebounded to 40k. So a year and 10-15k miles later I'm down 5-10k in value. While it's not a number I like, it's certainly within the realm of typical luxury car depreciation over that same time/distance, but for argument sake lets take the $10k difference and assume its all the fault of the diesel fiasco. That would mean that you've been harmed to the tune of $10k and should rightly expect compensation for that.
Assuming you bought it in a healthy and drivable state, then I'd be willing to bet that whole $10k that your purchase price for the vehicle was considerably more (and if you paid less than market value for it then that lessens your claim of injury as the seller would be the injured party in that situation). So IF the fix has no noticeable impact then you would not be due a buyback as fair compensation since the value of such an action is considerably more than how you have been harmed.
Now all that said (again), it looks highly unlikely that the idea of "no noticeable impact" is a real possibility any more. Then the waters get significantly more murky as to how much of an impact it has and how such an impact can be valued (e.g. reduced power impacts people that regularly tow more than people that just commute in it, MPG impacts those that put more miles on it than those that don't, etc..). At that point I think a buyback is a heavy handed answer, but administratively it's better than trying to deal with all the arguments/claims for an "appropriate" compensation.
10-27-2016, 01:20 PM
#1864
Rennlist Member
Now all that said (again), it looks highly unlikely that the idea of "no noticeable impact" is a real possibility any more. Then the waters get significantly more murky as to how much of an impact it has and how such an impact can be valued (e.g. reduced power impacts people that regularly tow more than people that just commute in it, MPG impacts those that put more miles on it than those that don't, etc..). At that point I think a buyback is a heavy handed answer, but administratively it's better than trying to deal with all the arguments/claims for an "appropriate" compensation.
Looking at the timeline of how the 2.0 owners were dealt, I think that if there is a buyback it won't happen at least sometime mid 2017.
So, changing the subject a little, I have been looking at what alternatives there are to replace the CD, given that I like the torque and mpg for my long distance driving, plus the "Porsche" way the CD feels. For awhile, I was toying with trading down to a 4-cylinder Macan. The Cayenne S is reaching $100K once it is spec as I want. The Q7 is a bit too big. The GLE has a weak diesel engine (4-cylinder? Come-on MB). The Jeep Grand Cherokee has Chrysler reliability. Maybe the BMW X5?
...and then I found Land Rover is introducing a new Discovery. It has the same 6-cylinder as in the Range Rover sports but at a lower price point. I know someone here actually got a Range Rover diesel after the CD scandal erupted. Maybe someone can advice me as to how the Rovers are now in terms of "drivability" and reliability?
Thanks
10-27-2016, 01:40 PM
#1865
So, changing the subject a little, I have been looking at what alternatives there are to replace the CD, given that I like the torque and mpg for my long distance driving, plus the "Porsche" way the CD feels. For awhile, I was toying with trading down to a 4-cylinder Macan. The Cayenne S is reaching $100K once it is spec as I want. The Q7 is a bit too big. The GLE has a weak diesel engine (4-cylinder? Come-on MB). The Jeep Grand Cherokee has Chrysler reliability. Maybe the BMW X5?
Unfortunately I don't feel there is any other option meets what I want and love about the CD. So now I'm thinking I might go a bit nuts and see if I can find a Peridot GTS CPO
10-27-2016, 01:43 PM
#1866
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Like many, I really like my Cayenne Diesel, but am also really disappointed with VW's fraud. All things being equal, I will probably opt for the buy back. If I am treated fairly, I may even purchase a Cayenne S e-Hybrid. However, there's a lurking tax issue that I have to figure out:
I purchased the CD in 2013 for business and took an IRS Section 179 deduction. (In fact, one reason I chose the Cayenne was because it qualified.) Back in 2013, Section 179 allowed you to deduct the entire purchase price of the asset (here, the Cayenne) as an expense in one year rather than expense the depreciation over time.
I believe that if I sell the CD back to Porsche at or near the same price for which I bought it, that entire amount will be treated as ordinary income. (I think the basis for the CD is $0 because of the 179 deduction.) Because the current Section 179 is limited to $25,000 -- I could be hit with pretty huge tax hit even if I buy a new Cayenne.
This is an issue that probably will not impact a lot of the the 2.0 owners, but could be a problem for Cayenne, Taureg and Q7 owners.
I wonder if anyone has looked into this or whether the plaintiffs' counsel has raised it.
I purchased the CD in 2013 for business and took an IRS Section 179 deduction. (In fact, one reason I chose the Cayenne was because it qualified.) Back in 2013, Section 179 allowed you to deduct the entire purchase price of the asset (here, the Cayenne) as an expense in one year rather than expense the depreciation over time.
I believe that if I sell the CD back to Porsche at or near the same price for which I bought it, that entire amount will be treated as ordinary income. (I think the basis for the CD is $0 because of the 179 deduction.) Because the current Section 179 is limited to $25,000 -- I could be hit with pretty huge tax hit even if I buy a new Cayenne.
This is an issue that probably will not impact a lot of the the 2.0 owners, but could be a problem for Cayenne, Taureg and Q7 owners.
I wonder if anyone has looked into this or whether the plaintiffs' counsel has raised it.
10-27-2016, 01:49 PM
#1867
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I was driving to work in my 2010 Touareg TDI this morning, feeling a bit wistful. This vehicle has 120k miles on the odo, and still drives like the day I took it out of the showroom. My achy back loves the ride and my back is fussy when it comes to long rides. I was thinking about what vehicle I could buy to replace it with the $ I'd likely get in a buyback. I couldn't think of one that wouldn't require me putting out big $'s in addition to the buyback $. I'd take a fix in a heart beat. I don't want to sell it back to VW.
10-27-2016, 01:58 PM
#1868
Rennlist Member
Keep in mind they defrauded the consumer with their cheating. They should offer a buyback regardless of any fix. They should allow their customer to decide. If they can fix them with minimal impact, then they should have no problem reselling the ones they buyback in the open marketplace. If they are buying them at clean trade in pricing, they can probably even make a profit on them, right?
What's "right" vs what's "practical" for a publically traded, for-profit company don't always line up nicely.
Even if they could resell and make a profit, there's a risk as well as the cost of tying up all that capital. Not a good strategy for a big corporation already facing extreme fiscal strain.
10-27-2016, 02:06 PM
#1869
Rennlist Member
Of course they would prefer to do that. It would save them millions and perhaps billions of dollars. Having read all the recent transcripts, as well as having read a fairly substantial portion of the Consent Decree, I don't think that VW will be given that choice. This is, of course, only one man's opinion, but I'll tell you why I think that way:
1. Reading through the transcripts, the judge has repeatedly identified that one of the biggest reasons that the CD is fair is that the owners have a choice. He's used that as one of his points in overcoming buyer's objections to the settlement, and he also used it in his Decision justifying why the CD is a good settlement for the class. Since he's made it one of the key tenets of his legal decision, I can't imagine that he would abandon this for the 3 liter cars.
1. Reading through the transcripts, the judge has repeatedly identified that one of the biggest reasons that the CD is fair is that the owners have a choice. He's used that as one of his points in overcoming buyer's objections to the settlement, and he also used it in his Decision justifying why the CD is a good settlement for the class. Since he's made it one of the key tenets of his legal decision, I can't imagine that he would abandon this for the 3 liter cars.
As for the option and making it "fair" to the class, I hadn't considered that perspective and I believe you may very well be right on this point, unless the fix is very simple and corrects the problem with no adverse impact. But, again, I think we all recognize the possibility of that being close to nil, so offering the choice is, indeed, very likely, when looked at with that perspective.
10-27-2016, 02:16 PM
#1870
Rennlist Member
So, changing the subject a little, I have been looking at what alternatives there are to replace the CD, given that I like the torque and mpg for my long distance driving, plus the "Porsche" way the CD feels. For awhile, I was toying with trading down to a 4-cylinder Macan. The Cayenne S is reaching $100K once it is spec as I want. The Q7 is a bit too big. The GLE has a weak diesel engine (4-cylinder? Come-on MB). The Jeep Grand Cherokee has Chrysler reliability. Maybe the BMW X5?
...and then I found Land Rover is introducing a new Discovery. It has the same 6-cylinder as in the Range Rover sports but at a lower price point. I know someone here actually got a Range Rover diesel after the CD scandal erupted. Maybe someone can advice me as to how the Rovers are now in terms of "drivability" and reliability?
Thanks
...and then I found Land Rover is introducing a new Discovery. It has the same 6-cylinder as in the Range Rover sports but at a lower price point. I know someone here actually got a Range Rover diesel after the CD scandal erupted. Maybe someone can advice me as to how the Rovers are now in terms of "drivability" and reliability?
Thanks
And, surprisingly, the Outback is pretty sporty. Not Porsche sporty, but really, that's not the prime factor in picking a vehicle like this. And it's certainly not Porsche luxury level, but it's pretty practical. And, our local dealer provides new Subi loaners, too... just like our Porsche dealer! Sometimes, it's the little things.
She wants a 911, so maybe after the kiddo has her own transportation, she'll get one!
10-27-2016, 03:24 PM
#1871
Rennlist Member
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And, surprisingly, the Outback is pretty sporty. Not Porsche sporty, but really, that's not the prime factor in picking a vehicle like this. And it's certainly not Porsche luxury level, but it's pretty practical. And, our local dealer provides new Subi loaners, too... just like our Porsche dealer! Sometimes, it's the little things.
She wants a 911, so maybe after the kiddo has her own transportation, she'll get one!
And, surprisingly, the Outback is pretty sporty. Not Porsche sporty, but really, that's not the prime factor in picking a vehicle like this. And it's certainly not Porsche luxury level, but it's pretty practical. And, our local dealer provides new Subi loaners, too... just like our Porsche dealer! Sometimes, it's the little things.
She wants a 911, so maybe after the kiddo has her own transportation, she'll get one!
If I am going that way, then the Audi AllRoad, though it will mean giving business to VW again
10-27-2016, 04:55 PM
#1873
Rennlist Member
Did think about it, though the diesel is kind of weak (again, a 4-cylinder like the GLE). At that price point, the 2017 Discovery with the v6 diesel seems to be a better deal, specially if you add the adaptive cruise control package options (which is a must for me). Of course, since it is a new model, no one knows how it feels driving it.
10-27-2016, 05:30 PM
#1874
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Did think about it, though the diesel is kind of weak (again, a 4-cylinder like the GLE). At that price point, the 2017 Discovery with the v6 diesel seems to be a better deal, specially if you add the adaptive cruise control package options (which is a must for me). Of course, since it is a new model, no one knows how it feels driving it.
10-27-2016, 05:32 PM
#1875
My body shop guy specializes in Jags (I met him over my XK8) and he despises the new Jags. Like all cars they are a pain to work on and getting ever more disposable. The quality and refinement just isn't there any more as they incorporate more and more plastics like everyone else.
Jag used to epitomize "Luxury Car" to me and the late 90s cars are still my gold standard for leather and wood quality in cars. Now they just feel and look like any other car
As far as the F-Pace, I've yet to see one in person and certainly haven't driven one, so I can't speak to it specifically.