I wanted to hold off on further comment until the auction was over as I didn't want the auction to be clouded with comments spilling over from here - in hindsight that was probably a good idea. The seller has nothing to do with this thread and i hope the proceeds from the sale help the family and/or the estate. It's unfortunate tubeguy couldn't help himself and still mentioned his bid was a shill bid and that there is a thread on rennlist about it. Par for the course in this day and age. GlenGT3, you seem like a nice guy but you come off a bit triggered and quite upset, which is unfortunate. I can't say i'm shocked to see this reaction from some granted the vested interest in these cars and their continued high valuations. There's anecdotal evidence that some members sold their purchase to their spouse as a guaranteed investment so I guess i can see the conflict. Nonetheless, this behavior that we're seeing (more below) is at best bizzare, and at worst, well .. i'll call it shady and douchey. Let's disect things a bit further for the non believers.

First, of course it was a shill bid - or maybe shill isn't the right word(?). What do you call placing bids in an auction in order to drive up the price of a car when the REAL ACTUAL INTENT is to accomplish just that - i.e. juice up valuations or cars you already own. The REAL INTENT is not to actually win the auction and buy the car. This is typical running up the bid and backing out before actually winning the car, as we just witnessed. Some of wonderdan's BAT comments during the auction provided a bit more clues that he didn't expect to win (doh!). In fact, why would Wonderdan want to buy this car when he owned a similar car that he sold not too long ago when he bought his RS. Then we have another resident rennlist pumper - Tubeguy (Upscale Audio). He sees the thread here and of course he has to go in and bid too, even though he also has no REAL interest or INTENT to buy the car. Coincidentally, Tubeguy also just sold a very similar but arguably even better car just a few weeks ago, and already owns another very similar example. Furthermore, Tubeguy was in this very thread earlier this week asking members to look at an RS in Atlanta for him.

There are a few other regulars on BAT that show up on every single 997 GT3 auction and do their dog and pony commenting/cheerleading action of how great these cars are, etc etc. One guy literally copies and pastes his comments from auction to auction. All of that is harmless, however, since there is no b.s. bidding. The other factor that needs to be mentioned is the velocity of the bids during the initial day of the auction, which gives the perception of outsized interest (i.e. more actual interested bidders than there are, willing to pay more, etc.) when you have this type of behavior, which I think can unduly impact or distort the overall outcome of a fair auction. As an example, wonderdan bid up the other interested bidder (before tubeguy joined in) from $145K to $170K. There were no other bids for nearly a week, until today when he and tubeguy bid again and drove up the price some more, with only 2 other real bidders putting in 1 bid each, one of which ended up winning the auction.

The common thread here of course is that both wonderdan and tubeguy stop short of what they thought was the danger zone (i.e. actually winning the car), however the danger zone appears to have moved down (in $$$) and wonderdan almost won the bid (accidentally), while also admitting that if he hadn't messed around bidding it up during the past week (see above paragraph). I suspect he would've continue to run it up had he not been warned by another member that the last bidder he outbid was actually a dealer. Everyone can see the BAT comments and draw their own conclusions.

In a nutshell, this whole thing is very odd to me - members who already own these cars going in and pumping these GT3 auctions on BAT, with the main intent to run up the bid and not actually buy. Neither wonderdan or Tubeguy are dealers, by the way. How is this different than shilling? Or does anyone honestly believe these guys are actually looking to buy: a) a nearly identical cars to the ones they just sold weeks or months earlier while STILL owning one or a similar RS model, or b) shopping for an RS AND a second nearly identical GT3 to the one they already own. If you honestly believe this makes sense, i have a bridge to nowhere to sell you.

Oh and before anyone else gets all worked up about this post, yes, i realize it doesn't fit the agenda of these cars being "investments" and "th3Y 0nLy Go UP!!!", and that's fine, as long as we're objective about what is actually going on. Easier said than done probably.

hope you all have a nice weekend!

 

Most buyers on BaT I have noticed aren’t on forums so yes maybe pumping up the price hurts but also I think many folks here wouldn’t pay what they sell for on Bat so stop bidding well before sale price

I fit in that bucket for sure

 

*edit for clarity

Thats a lot to read... but I'lll go for a quick reply, the last Porsche I bid on was the same spec Red GT3 in February (I assume other GT3's have sold between then and now I didn't bid on). AFTER GlenGT3 was nice enough to tell me it was a dealer I pushed to my cap which was ~$176k *after the owner had lifted the reserve.

I do agree with you on one thing, trying to bid on something at a discount and having a stopping point because I don't 'need' it is no way to be the new Snaveed. I also think its inappropriate to presume/judge the liquidity of people and if some light gambling is appropriate or not

 

im curious, since you have one, why entertain the idea of getting a second one? Especially since you have an rs. For me at least, even if I had lots more funds, I would stick to having just one 997 GT car at a time. Id look to get an aircooled car, a cayman, old m3 or something like that. all the 997 gt cars are pretty similar in my opinion with some little differences sprinkled in. If you would prefer to respond over a PM, that’s cool to by the way.

 

I wasn't triggered or upset but no offense taken. I chimed in only because I've seen @Wonderdan sell cars (and donate part of proceeds to charity) and buy cars on these auction sites. That tells me he's a genuine guy and not someone looking for silly ways to manipulate auctions or the market. I think of shill bids as something intended to manipulate or trick. I don't think throwing a bid in below where the car actually ends up selling is something nefarious. Many people bid with the hope no one else comes in and they can snag a deal. That is in fact what actually happened in the auction today. Even the winner seemed surprised he got the car. Was he a shill bidder? I don't think so. Bidding 170K on that GT3 is not propping up the value because it's significantly below market value. It's just hopeful bidding. I won't speculate as to why someone would want two of the same cars but I know if I can get a bargain I'd buy 10 of the same cars and just sell them at a profit to help pay off current or future cars which I want to drive and keep.
Personally, I'm obsessed with cars, especially 911s. I've bought and sold dozens over the years. I justify this expensive hobby by being opportunistic and buying when I can find a car below market value, and then I can sell it a few months or years later at market value, which by that time may be less than what I paid for it but at least I don't get burned. That's how I support my passion. I've bid on tons of cars and won very few. Each one of my bids was genuine, even though it had a very low likelihood of winning. I guess I just identified with the bidding strategy and saw nothing wrong with it.

Wishing everyone a great weekend as well. If you already have a GT3, go put some miles on it the next few days. I know I will.

 

Because this is my neighbors garage!

LOL no really its mainly because with the cage (perceived as less safe w/out a helmet) - harness's in and the buckets no-one wants to ride with me anywhere including date night. So I've been trying to get a good deal (not to replace) on a cool regular 997.2 with sofas or a GT350R to toy around town with, my wife has an electric SUV and my daily is an electric Subaru Crosstrek and an F-250... I don't drive this RS around town.

As most know I really want a Kermit .1 which didnt come with LWBS and no cage, so depending on my situation in the next few years thats really the car I hope to snag if the economy dips.

 

Without quoting all of the above - do we really think there are 3-4 “regulars” here and on BaT concerned enough about market values of these cars to spend the time, energy, and possible $200k cash outlay if they “accidentally” win, to engage in shill” bidding?

@lawrence1 Your theory is eloquently and thoroughly explained, but strikes me as a bridge too far for this crowd. These are folks with enough liquidity to own one or more of these cars. I’m wildly skeptical of humanity in general, but I just can’t imagine there’s a seedy underbelly of folks here seeking to inflate values.

Just seems to me that folks here are neither desperate nor dumb enough to think that a few “false” bids are material enough to affect the 997GT market on a macro basis. Especially when the majority of BaT results for the past 6 months have consistently netted price points within 10-20k of what seems to be “market” depending on spec, mileage, condition, etc.

I, for example, absolutely want my car to just keep appreciating. I’ll comment here and there on BaT auctions for these cars just to enjoy the exchanges, but not for puffery. I don’t f*ucking care if someone gets a great deal or overpays. Doesn’t affect me. The market will be what it will be over time. 4-5 BaT auction results here and there will have marginal to no impact on the overall market.

Again, no intent to argue or attack your theory. Just my view of what you’re describing. Seems conspiracy-ish.

 

Christ, your neighbor can jealously go f*ck himself. 😉

 

quick reply back - no one is making judgements on liquidity. My post doesn't mention ability to purchase or liquidity, it goes at the intent to purchase, which i believe isn't there. That has been confirmed more or less with this auction. There was almost zero effort to actually win the auction from either you or tubeguy when it mattered.

It's all good though - i'm sure you aren't going to come in here and admit to it so let's agree to disagree. Hope you do end up buying another if that's what you're really after.

 

I mean you've put a lot of investigation in (although wrong on a few timestamps) and I applaud your ability to 'stay quiet' for almost 4 days... although I'd rather have read the book in chapters I'll admit I didn't get through the full post.

Sometimes this thread gets kinda boring and stagnant so I'm glad I could be here for the crowd.

 

RL beef is the best. It’s like a monied version of Reddit nonsense.

Politely insulting.

 

LOL I'm tip toeing around... we don't want to risk a moderator erasing all this entertaining banter so gotta go back under my rock until the next beauty surfaces and I can unleash my trickery

 

lol that is a crazy garage.

Interesting I would never think of a 997 gt car as my car to use for date night but to each his own. I only use it for spirited drives. I don’t really like just driving it around town and the car seems to dislike that as well.

get the Shelby 😉 I love that car. But for real though, another reason I personally think that it kind of stinks if someone owns a few of these at once is because one of those other cars could have went to another prospective buyer looking for one of these. Given that there were not a lot of these made (and less good examples now), it makes it even more difficult to source one. For me I would just find the one that is perfect for my intended use and call it a day. Plus, it means I have more garage space for something different. That’s my personal opinion; maybe I would think differently if I had enough funds to have a few of them but that is not the case.

 

i can bring a troll on here when we are ready to get the moderators involved…

 

I have a bid out on one now… but man I’m a conservative bidder relatively speaking I think we all just tend to forget the fire we are playing with.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...-911-gt3-rs-8/