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Man, this forum is awesome. I stumbled upon this car 12hrs ago on trader. Became seriously interested 8 hours ago. Turned to rennlist for info 6hrs ago, and now (thanks to you guys) have DME report, service records, accident history (with photos), window sticker/options, and more ownership/driving history than I could've imagined. No better time to be car shopping with all this info available online.
I think the car is still on my list, but knowing history a bit better, theres some negotiating to be done and if we reach the final stages, a thorough PPI necessary as always. It sure is a good looking car...
Man, this forum is awesome. I stumbled upon this car 12hrs ago on trader. Became seriously interested 8 hours ago. Turned to rennlist for info 6hrs ago, and now (thanks to you guys) have DME report, service records, accident history (with photos), window sticker/options, and more ownership/driving history than I could've imagined. No better time to be car shopping with all this info available online.
I think the car is still on my list, but knowing history a bit better, theres some negotiating to be done and if we reach the final stages, a thorough PPI necessary as always. It sure is a good looking car...
I also think this car was listed for around 76k a couple months ago and then has popped around.
Doug, are you aware of any reason why 997 gt3 range 1 starts so much above the rev limit? Why don’t their over-rev ranges start at the rev limit, as it would make most sense?
I too agree that your question and comments in the Marketplace were perfectly fine and not negative at all.
I would argue that the GT3 rev limit and over rev counter makes more sense than the rest of the model range. If you set the rev limiter at a speed where the engine can run sustained for thousands of hours with no damage, then there is no reason to log the time. Why would they set the rev limiter at a speed that is high enough to potentially cause damage? The limiter is there to protect the equipment, not allow for moderate damage. If you want a log of time spent at the rev limiter you might as well keep track of ignitions spent at full throttle also.
As for the RS with so many range 1s, the only thing that makes sense to me is that the car was tuned, and had the limit bumped to 9k. Anything is possible, and it could be 100% bad shifts, but I find it unlikely that the bad shifts were so precise as to only hit (mostly) range 1. Tuning parameter changes are usually responsible for an increased number of range 1 hits on the older turbo cars.
I would argue that the GT3 rev limit and over rev counter makes more sense than the rest of the model range. If you set the rev limiter at a speed where the engine can run sustained for thousands of hours with no damage, then there is no reason to log the time. Why would they set the rev limiter at a speed that is high enough to potentially cause damage? The limiter is there to protect the equipment, not allow for moderate damage. If you want a log of time spent at the rev limiter you might as well keep track of ignitions spent at full throttle also.
More info is better than less info. That's why there are SIX ranges to be spread over the relevant rpm area ABOVE the rev limit (hence "over-revs"). It's not like there's a certain ONE rpm threshold that makes all lower rpms "perfectly fine" and all higher rpms "engine is toast". The whole rpm range above the rev-limit matters and the more info about time spent there (and in which ranges) the better. By your logic, since Ranges 1 and 2 are "ok" for most cars (and still qualify a car as a CPO) then why count even those and why not move Range 1 up to where current Range 3 begins and count only ignitions spent there?
Btw, I wouldn't mind knowing the # of ignitions spent at full throttle if the info was available. Would you?
I would argue that the GT3 rev limit and over rev counter makes more sense than the rest of the model range. If you set the rev limiter at a speed where the engine can run sustained for thousands of hours with no damage, then there is no reason to log the time. Why would they set the rev limiter at a speed that is high enough to potentially cause damage? The limiter is there to protect the equipment, not allow for moderate damage. If you want a log of time spent at the rev limiter you might as well keep track of ignitions spent at full throttle also.
As for the RS with so many range 1s, the only thing that makes sense to me is that the car was tuned, and had the limit bumped to 9k. Anything is possible, and it could be 100% bad shifts, but I find it unlikely that the bad shifts were so precise as to only hit (mostly) range 1. Tuning parameter changes are usually responsible for an increased number of range 1 hits on the older turbo cars.
I'm not aware of anyone that bumps the redline on a GT3 tune. Anyone else heard of that?
Originally Posted by hf1
More info is better than less info. That's why there are SIX ranges to be spread over the relevant rpm area ABOVE the rev limit (hence "over-revs"). It's not like there's a certain ONE rpm threshold that makes all lower rpms "perfectly fine" and all higher rpms "engine is toast". The whole rpm range above the rev-limit matters and the more info about time spent there (and in which ranges) the better. By your logic, since Ranges 1 and 2 are "ok" for most cars (and still qualify a car as a CPO) then why count even those and why not move Range 1 up to where current Range 3 begins and count only ignitions spent there?
Btw, I wouldn't mind knowing the # of ignitions spent at full throttle if the info was available. Would you?
The only issue with more info is that it gives people who don't know how to interpret the info more reasons to second-guess a good car. Ever seen a VAL? It's like, 2 pounds of paper. The only thing most people can understand is the number of overrevs, but there's plenty more information in there.
Interestingly enough my Corvette boat computer stores the # of time spent at each throttle range as well as RPM range all the way up to redline, so I was able to see before I bought it that nobody ever drove it the way I was about to.
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The only issue with more info is that it gives people who don't know how to interpret the info more reasons to second-guess a good car.
That's the "issue" with ALL info. A panel replacement/repaint too gives more reasons to second-guess a good car, but buyers seem to prefer to know about it vs. being kept in the dark. More info about a sold product/service is ALWAYS better than less info even though oftentimes there are buyers who can't interpret the info properly. On average and over time, the market learns to properly weigh each piece of info as market players who consistently misinterpret (misprice) the info get out-competed by the players that don't.
That's the "issue" with ALL info. A panel replacement/repaint too gives more reasons to second-guess a good car, but buyers seem to prefer to know about it vs. being kept in the dark. More info about a sold product/service is ALWAYS better than less info even though oftentimes there are buyers who can't interpret the info properly. On average and over time, the market learns to properly weigh each piece of info as market players who consistently misinterpret (misprice) the info get out-competed by the players that don't.
That's the "issue" with ALL info. A panel replacement/repaint too gives more reasons to second-guess a good car, but buyers seem to prefer to know about it vs. being kept in the dark. More info about a sold product/service is ALWAYS better than less info even though oftentimes there are buyers who can't interpret the info properly. On average and over time, the market learns to properly weigh each piece of info as market players who consistently misinterpret (misprice) the info get out-competed by the players that don't.
I agree with Doug (paraphrasing) that too much information hurts more buyers than it helps. I think it promotes neurosis and treating cars as museum pieces, and in general isn't great for the community as a whole. I don't agree with not logging range 1 and 2 because its beyond the range that the parts are designed to be used and certainly with some tolerance stack up could cause damage. Look up the S-N curve for titanium alloys (connecting rods) and you will see there is a range of loading that will reduce the part cycle to failure count without causing immediate failure. What i DO disagree with is having the rev limiter set high enough to cause a strain amplitude that will reduce component life. If you are operating with forces that will produce nearly infinite fatigue life, why would i want the ECU to store it so it can be used against me by uninformed buyers.
Agree on data. I want the information, then I can decide which parts I want and which data is most important to me. As Doug said, a VAL makes no sense to me. I had one for a car and I gave up trying to understand degrees of cam slip (probably not even a thing and I am making that up) and other information.
But over rev report and paint meter are two easy ways to quickly but sometimes incorrectly judge a car, but they are very useful. PPI from a quality shop that knows what they are looking for along with a solid drive is a great way to assess.
Unfortunately, over rev report and paint meter seem to be very important to buyers mostly due to the resale down the line even when a car with range 1, 2, and 3's can be a good car and a repainted front bumper is not necessarily a bad thing, even though I can agree most of us don't want that.
It's been a while since I've checked but what is a low options 07 GT3 with 23k miles and a clean history/DME report, coolant lines pinned, worth these days, mid to upper 80's? I know it went up to 90's a while ago but probably came back down.
Generally speaking, when cold weather arrives, prices for homes, motorcycles, boats, convertibles and sports cars tend to decrease somewhat but usually normalize when Spring arrives.
^I would say a solid 85k maybe even a few pennies more. Market seems to be softening though.
Seems about right, too big of a gap to any newer GT cars for me so I guess it will continue to sit in my garage. Saw 991.1 prices were coming down but not enough for me to make the jump.
Generally speaking, when cold weather arrives, prices for homes, motorcycles, boats, convertibles and sports cars tend to decrease somewhat but usually normalize when Spring arrives.
That would be because folks don’t really blow cash on such a purchase at this time a year. I’d wait if I could and sell spring/summer. You simply have more available buyers
10-20-2019 | 11:46 AM
