RS Crashed
05-29-2010, 12:47 AM
#91
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I'm so glad you're OK. Hopefully the car can be fixed. And Thank You for reminding everyone about the importance of the safety equipment. My HANS saved me in the esses at Road Atlanta in a Panoz (I don't remember the crash itself). And to address an earlier post, a driver should not wait until they track their car on a regular basis. Everything else equal, we get better track day after track day. So every day we wait to get the equipment, the more time we spend without it when we need it more.
Armando
Armando
05-29-2010, 01:10 AM
#92
RAIN TIRES ........ These cars come with "Dry Tires" only. I won't even drive my RS on the street in the rain because of the inherent lack of tread. One the only occasion that I drove one of mine (got caught is a better term) in the rain, I was hydroplaning at 55 mph.
Two decades of racing and we NEVER went out on a track as wet as the photos of that blue car unless we were on Full Tread "rain tires". Never on shaved tires which is basically what these OE tires are. If we got caught in rain, you ALWAYS came in at the first opportunity for a tire change UNLESS the crew chief could plainly see blue skies behind the cloud burst.
Even then it was a gamble to see if you could outlast the rain.
NEVER go onto a raining track with these tires.
Nothing is gained or learned; lap times are slower, track lines are completely different, and car set-up is useless and most important, there are far too many variables that you can NOT control in the rain.
05-29-2010, 02:38 AM
#93
Rennlist Member
I'm glad that you're ok and I'm sorry about your car. I was a couple of cars behind you when this happened, and it was very sobering to see a car sitting on the wall. It was a scary track day, and as the day went on, an increasingly large puddle developed at the track-out for turn 15, so maybe you straddled the developing puddle with two wheels?
Best of luck getting that awesome car fixed or replaced!
(I was the guy driving the light blue Elise).
Best of luck getting that awesome car fixed or replaced!
(I was the guy driving the light blue Elise).
05-29-2010, 02:53 AM
#94
Rennlist Member
FWIW in the rain now- I only drive my spec boxster or mx5 cup car, or a formula car (racing wet or dry). it's not worth putting my CGT or RS's on the track in a roulette game.
collectively- we spend a lot of time tuning our cars for the "ultimate set up" with high amounts of camber- stiffness in the sway bars etc. this is a DRY set up and will in fact get you in trouble on a wet course.
F1 guys are the best in the world and spin out all the time, in cars with 3000 lbs of downforce.
collectively- we spend a lot of time tuning our cars for the "ultimate set up" with high amounts of camber- stiffness in the sway bars etc. this is a DRY set up and will in fact get you in trouble on a wet course.
F1 guys are the best in the world and spin out all the time, in cars with 3000 lbs of downforce.
Maybe I have scanned this thread to quickly, but other than this comment I didn't notice a critical factor overlooked.
RAIN TIRES ........ These cars come with "Dry Tires" only. I won't even drive my RS on the street in the rain because of the inherent lack of tread. One the only occasion that I drove one of mine (got caught is a better term) in the rain, I was hydroplaning at 55 mph.
Two decades of racing and we NEVER went out on a track as wet as the photos of that blue car unless we were on Full Tread "rain tires". Never on shaved tires which is basically what these OE tires are. If we got caught in rain, you ALWAYS came in at the first opportunity for a tire change UNLESS the crew chief could plainly see blue skies behind the cloud burst.
Even then it was a gamble to see if you could outlast the rain.
NEVER go onto a raining track with these tires.
Nothing is gained or learned; lap times are slower, track lines are completely different, and car set-up is useless and most important, there are far too many variables that you can NOT control in the rain.
RAIN TIRES ........ These cars come with "Dry Tires" only. I won't even drive my RS on the street in the rain because of the inherent lack of tread. One the only occasion that I drove one of mine (got caught is a better term) in the rain, I was hydroplaning at 55 mph.
Two decades of racing and we NEVER went out on a track as wet as the photos of that blue car unless we were on Full Tread "rain tires". Never on shaved tires which is basically what these OE tires are. If we got caught in rain, you ALWAYS came in at the first opportunity for a tire change UNLESS the crew chief could plainly see blue skies behind the cloud burst.
Even then it was a gamble to see if you could outlast the rain.
NEVER go onto a raining track with these tires.
Nothing is gained or learned; lap times are slower, track lines are completely different, and car set-up is useless and most important, there are far too many variables that you can NOT control in the rain.
If the rain hit and we dared to hit the track on slicks (which I often did for reasons of stupidity- loved to practise throttle steer in an environment that couldn't easily kill me as they never turned in when wet), the set up was completely different- fully stiff set up, maximum track width, high pressures... We struggled to stay on the track and that was without the sort of weight and power variables one of these cars presents... I certainly won't be doing my karting stunts in something that can bite back!
Considering the sort of cambers that are typically used to maximise grip in the dry, under wet conditions one would assume there would be a whole lot less tyre foot print used as you simply wouldn't be able to pull the same corner speeds...
Thanks fellas
Last edited by 911rox; 05-29-2010 at 04:27 AM.
05-29-2010, 04:12 AM
#95
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Bad news......frustrating, as you went even pumping it!
Good News:
You are ok.
Car insured.
Best News:
Your wife was not in the car. Could have put her off everything to do with your car, trackdays, speed, worrying, lalala.
That's so good she wasn't in there!
Now we can all see that looking slightly weird with all the safety gear on doesn't matter.
In the UK at least 40% of trackdays are usually attended with guys borrowing or hiring a helmet and wearing trainers, jeans and a long sleeve t-shirt.
Then, these same guys have a slight grin when they see you suited and booted!
Good News:
You are ok.
Car insured.
Best News:
Your wife was not in the car. Could have put her off everything to do with your car, trackdays, speed, worrying, lalala.
That's so good she wasn't in there!
Now we can all see that looking slightly weird with all the safety gear on doesn't matter.
In the UK at least 40% of trackdays are usually attended with guys borrowing or hiring a helmet and wearing trainers, jeans and a long sleeve t-shirt.
Then, these same guys have a slight grin when they see you suited and booted!
Last edited by buttons123; 05-29-2010 at 04:32 AM. Reason: Spelling error
05-29-2010, 05:58 AM
#96
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Again, thanks to all for the kind comments and encouragement!! And for the really great suggestions and feedback and personal anecdotes.
Ok, back home from track now. Rode with car on the flatbed truck. In the cab of the truck, that is. I feel fine and aside from my airbag arm I have no aches or pain. Porsche chassis and safety gear for the win
Upon close examination, and not in the mud and pouring rain it appears that the damage is not as bad as feared and tub is not tweaked. In fact, given the hit, I am stunned at the lack of tub damage.
I vividly remember during the hit how freaking solid it felt as it contacted. Like the face of two hammers hitting. Porsche builds one hell of a strong chassis, no doubt there.
A lot of energy must have been absorbed by the tire wall in front of the concrete wall. And more energy went into projecting the car vertical.
It will be an expensive fix, but unless the frame rack shows tweaking not currently apparent, then the car is repairable and may well rise from the mishap better than before. Stay tuned...this can have a very positive outcome in more ways than one.
Ok, back home from track now. Rode with car on the flatbed truck. In the cab of the truck, that is. I feel fine and aside from my airbag arm I have no aches or pain. Porsche chassis and safety gear for the win
Upon close examination, and not in the mud and pouring rain it appears that the damage is not as bad as feared and tub is not tweaked. In fact, given the hit, I am stunned at the lack of tub damage.
I vividly remember during the hit how freaking solid it felt as it contacted. Like the face of two hammers hitting. Porsche builds one hell of a strong chassis, no doubt there.
A lot of energy must have been absorbed by the tire wall in front of the concrete wall. And more energy went into projecting the car vertical.
It will be an expensive fix, but unless the frame rack shows tweaking not currently apparent, then the car is repairable and may well rise from the mishap better than before. Stay tuned...this can have a very positive outcome in more ways than one.
Glad to hear your RS is not badly hurt and hope your arm will heal up soon. Yes, Porsche is super well build and that is why we track the beast. Relax for the next couple days and take a good look at your RS to assess the damage and come up with a revival plan. Give me a shout if I can help in any way
05-29-2010, 10:08 AM
#97
Rennlist Member
What a tragedy! Please post when you figure out what happened....
Hans, track insurance, no wife in car....smart moves!
I have to admit that my "rain line" is as posted above and it's up the ramps into the trailer if caught in the rain; the day is canceled in advance if the forecast is bad. I've had a ton of fun driving in the rain over the years but in these cars I've seen, heard of and experienced too many surprises...not worth the risk IMO.
Hans, track insurance, no wife in car....smart moves!
I have to admit that my "rain line" is as posted above and it's up the ramps into the trailer if caught in the rain; the day is canceled in advance if the forecast is bad. I've had a ton of fun driving in the rain over the years but in these cars I've seen, heard of and experienced too many surprises...not worth the risk IMO.
05-29-2010, 10:47 AM
#98
Pete: Its great that you are keeping some optimism going and may get the car back better than before. Don't know if you have selected a place to do the actual repairs, unless the crew at Reno Porsche can do the body work also. Gilson has the state of the art stuff to determine if the frame is straight - they did a demo for the Porsche Club not long ago. They also do flawless body work.
Just a suggestion - I am sure you will use the best people available.
Doug
ps: there is an article about the technology at Gilson in this month's Porsche Club Circular magazine. I can shoot you a copy if you don't have it.
Just a suggestion - I am sure you will use the best people available.
Doug
ps: there is an article about the technology at Gilson in this month's Porsche Club Circular magazine. I can shoot you a copy if you don't have it.
Last edited by lawjdc; 05-29-2010 at 11:02 AM.
05-29-2010, 01:29 PM
#99
Nordschleife Master
05-29-2010, 02:02 PM
#100
Right. The diff has to be inspected by Porsche as one possible cause for the loss of control. With SC and TC enabled, it's just about impossible for the car to get that far out of shape and beyond recovery.
I imagine the diff was working hard in the wet and had a complete failure, causing one rear to lock up, this would send all power to the other rear which would momentarily over-rotate, then TC would intervene and bring down rpm to match front wheel road speed and steering angle (if any) but with one rear locked up, the car's going to pivot on that anchor point (in this car, rotating clockwise to the right) and no amount of steering input will compensate, especially in the wet.
If this scenario proves correct, I think Porsche is at fault for the incident, but I'd be concerned that they will want to distance themselves from liability and consequential damages -- not wanting this case to be their responsibility or allowing it to become any sort of precedent.
Based on what's discovered in this car, I'm either getting a motorsport or a Guard diff and adding it to the ledger of costs in operating a Porsche on the track (still relatively small compared to any other marque, but annoying to see the GT cars exhibiting brake problems and clutch problems and now the fluid connectors for coolant and power steering are prone to failure ... I guess Porsche can go ahead and put the VW badges back on ... I think Clarkson got on the bandwagon just a little too late ... he was right in the first place, the 911 is just a VW Beetle with a long nose and a high price tag. : )
As for Savvy's RS, it turns out damage from the tire wall is relatively minor -- doesn't even seem to have damaged the headlight on the passenger side. Should be an easy fix, but you never know until you're in there.
I imagine the diff was working hard in the wet and had a complete failure, causing one rear to lock up, this would send all power to the other rear which would momentarily over-rotate, then TC would intervene and bring down rpm to match front wheel road speed and steering angle (if any) but with one rear locked up, the car's going to pivot on that anchor point (in this car, rotating clockwise to the right) and no amount of steering input will compensate, especially in the wet.
If this scenario proves correct, I think Porsche is at fault for the incident, but I'd be concerned that they will want to distance themselves from liability and consequential damages -- not wanting this case to be their responsibility or allowing it to become any sort of precedent.
Based on what's discovered in this car, I'm either getting a motorsport or a Guard diff and adding it to the ledger of costs in operating a Porsche on the track (still relatively small compared to any other marque, but annoying to see the GT cars exhibiting brake problems and clutch problems and now the fluid connectors for coolant and power steering are prone to failure ... I guess Porsche can go ahead and put the VW badges back on ... I think Clarkson got on the bandwagon just a little too late ... he was right in the first place, the 911 is just a VW Beetle with a long nose and a high price tag. : )
As for Savvy's RS, it turns out damage from the tire wall is relatively minor -- doesn't even seem to have damaged the headlight on the passenger side. Should be an easy fix, but you never know until you're in there.
05-29-2010, 02:58 PM
#101
Drifting
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Great news that is mate. I would head for that Sushi place in North Star and celebrate.
Glad you can bring her back and hope you can drive the snot out of her for years to come.
Only bummer is since it was in an accident it will negatively effect the resale value. But to hell with that. We don't buy our cars to keep, not drive; especially on the track, and then to sell later. If that was what we were to do this would be a Ferrari forum!
Glad you can bring her back and hope you can drive the snot out of her for years to come.
Only bummer is since it was in an accident it will negatively effect the resale value. But to hell with that. We don't buy our cars to keep, not drive; especially on the track, and then to sell later. If that was what we were to do this would be a Ferrari forum!
05-29-2010, 08:05 PM
#103
Rennlist Member
It will be an expensive fix, but unless the frame rack shows tweaking not currently apparent, then the car is repairable and may well rise from the mishap better than before. Stay tuned...this can have a very positive outcome in more ways than one.
05-29-2010, 11:32 PM
#104
Drifting
Thread Starter
That right front frame horn took the brunt of the impact and must have transferred the energy through the chassis. Amazing construction.It can also be noted from the pics that Pirelli Corsa Systems have several deep/wide rain grooves in the tread face. I wasn't running slicks, that would have been really stupid.
And the new RS doesn't run a lot of camber, mine is only -1.5 all around.
911rox and The Baron make excellent points and I fully agree with their comments, but wanted to point out my specifics.
And I might add: https://rennlist.com/forums/987-foru...ml#post7613177
05-30-2010, 12:04 AM
#105
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I was real sad to see this Pete. I'm pretty sure that when you entered the straight you still had some side force on the car and when you accelerated enough to spin one tire with your open diff you lost half your contact patch in back and spun.