CamsPorsche

I've read Mezger engines (http://www.total911.com/technology-e...mezger-engine/ ) are nikasil cylinders whereas M96/97 engines are lokasil and all +09 engines are alusil.

http://www.porscheinspections.com/qanda.php#Cylinder bore scoring

vern1

Thanks, am checking them out

Bruce In Philly

Bummer.. It is an awful feeling. These are expensive cars and we expect more...way more.

What year and model is your car?

I actually became pretty angry when my 2nd blew. I can't believe I rewarded Porsche with another purchase, but car is fun, very high performance, and rather practical... Not much out there like them.

This is why I am jaded and have no problem looking at Porsche or my car with a critical eye. They just don't deserve the worship.

Good luck... When you do your cost benefit analysis keep us informed. For me, my Boxster had too many miles on the chassis at 197k for a $23k repair when I found a low mileage 997.2 C2S for $53.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

vern1

On my sig line - 2006 c4s with less than 50k miles

I had read about this but was in the "what are the odds this happens to me" camp - well 100% now. And yes pretty depressing the amount of issues these engines can have. But as u also say, tough to beat the driving experience

rodH

Thats about every 6,200 miles (for us across the boarder) right? Any more details on Oil? Wt and type? Anything else that may prevent this type of thing from happening? (I always get super paranoid as any "big potential" problem on a car, always seems to happen on my cars. IE-VANOS failure on an M3, although I didn't have my subframe crack, but maybe I didn't have enough miles).

My 2005 (purchased on Dec 9, 2004) spent the majority of its 20,000 mile life in the midwest (Indiana, Kansas, Ohio), I don't know if the weather is Canada-like, but I do know that it isn't anything like Calif or Florida. No details regarding being driven in the winter, 2 owners, the one that owned it the longest was a "collector" and he had 20 something cars, and they are all in a climate controlled enviro (not sure if that matters in this bore scoring issue, I suppose it might if the cause is starting the car in extreme cold?). I also doubt someone that is a collector and this car only averaging 1,800 miles a year was being driven in the winter, but who the heck knows, maybe it was his "beater"?

Let us know how this goes and if you find a somewhat "affordable" fix. GOOD LUCK!!!!!

Flat6 Innovations

And the mid- spring influx of cylinder scoring has arrived.. Every year we see the end of April- May, and even into June illustrate the damage that occurred to bores over the winter.

5 Entries into the failure log last week, and 3 today so far, for this week. Peak will hit around May 20 or so, just like it has every year for a decade or so..

Hockenheimr, You are comparing 997 Lokasil bores with aircooled Nikisil bores- they are not even on the same planet with each other. I have never, ever seen the scoring thats associated with the 997 engine occur with any aircooled cylinder.

A slight tick thats often confused with a noisy lifter is the first symptom... Then comes the one sooty tail pipe, then the oil consumption, then the misfires and flashing CELS. By then its eating a quart of oil every 3 days, and you are driving it to death.. Its the same story over and over again. I heard it 5 dozen times last year alone.

rodH

is this problem avoidable? If so, how?

andy92782

Anyone ever done an LSx swap into a 997.1? Seems to be gaining in popularity with the 996 crowd...

nk215

Sorry to hear the news. 50K km is nothing for a modern engine design. I wish there were a class action similar to the one with IMSB.

Porsche already carries a healthy markup and still they cut corners when they began to bring the car to the masses.

I read about a LS7 retrofited into a 911. 600+ hp with less weight + Porsche sound and handling.

Philster

Anyone asking about bore scoring causes, it's a well-covered subject.

Jump to google, and google terms such as '997 bore scoring raby' ..... '997 bore scoring hartech' .... and you'll have an evening full of reading, as you'll get links to two very helpful firms discussing leading theories.

Me? I see cold weather daily driver coming out of winter with oil changes at 6000+ miles, and I think of oil with excessive water and contaminants and extended periods of rich running, which serves to wash away the less-than-spectacular oil film the engine needs.

It's got more compounding factors, but that's my thoughts after seeing a daily driver from Toronto with scoring in early spring.



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zirrah

How do you figure you get Porsche (flat 6) sound out of an American V8?

jhbrennan

I know that cold weather can cause problems but Germany is a cold winter climate too and I bet there are as many 911's in Germany as there are in Canada...so is cold really the root cause of the bore scoring issues?

vern1

Jake, I believe I read you have at least a year backlog and I can't wait this long as its my daily driver. Do you know of someone in Canada who rebuilds like you do ie with nickies liners? Not trying to take business away from you but just looking at options that could work for my circumstances

In the US I have also heard of RND and MB as options but nothing in Canada

Thanks

vern1

Yes about 6000 miles. Mobil 0-40, daily driver including winter. Car was always properly warmed up etc. Oil changed consistently etc

Flat6 Innovations

Happens there too.. Our German affiliate sends scored blocks to LN every summer also.

BUT the one big difference is the fuels that are used between the two different operating environments, and that seems to be a factor.

Its not just cold that creates this issue. The problems always end up as a compound set of factors that combine to create a perfect storm. This is why we see many more of these failures from the mid west than the north east states, even though its just as cold, or even colder in the NW that the mid west. There are also tons more of the questioned vehicles in the NE than the mid west. The difference between these two seems to be winter blend fuel.

What many people fail to understand is the cylinder failure is a collateral damage, with the primary damage first being the failure of the piston skirt coating being compromised. This coating acts a dis-similar material between the aluminum piston, and the aluminum (lokasil) bore. We catch cylinder failures in process all the time, and the coating is always compromised in these scenarios, and sometimes the scored bore hasn't even began to occur yet. In other situations it has began, and some engines will see all the bores scored, while others only see one.

Every now and then we will have a failure entry thats not in a cold climate, and has never been operated in one. My technical training partner, Tony Callas operates a shop in LA (Callas Rennsport), he sees cylinder failures there from time to time too. Some of these cars have made their way from places where they were operated in cold, but others have not.

The cold weather operation definitely plays a role with the majority of these failures, but not every single one. Will every engine fail? No, will half of them fail? No. Is their a way to know if any car will be effected? No. Whether it will happen to you or not is a bit of a coin toss, and luck does play into it.

As a developer I've been working on ways to avoid this, or reduce the chances of its occurrence for over a decade. I've yet to be successful.

The M96/ M97 are not the only engines impacted by this. The Cayenne S and Turbo are both impacted, and we actually saw these issues with the Cayenne engines first, before the sports cars. The symptoms are exactly the same, the leading causes also seem to be the same, even though the Cayenne is an Alusil block/ cylinder arrangement, and the M96/97 is Lokasil.

Last but not least, we also see this in the 9a1 engines in the 997.2 and later cars. I saw my first case of this in 2010 with those vehicles.

Here's some photos:





9a1 Cayman R engine from 2012. 4,165 miles, failed before the first oil change. No track time, original owner, never abused. Didn't even have one over rev logged.





A different 9a1 cylinder in process of delamination.





Cayenne 955 TT failure at 70K miles





The cylinder that matches the Cayenne 955TT piston.