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Hi Tom,
Would like your opinion on specifically choosing between the Bilstein B16 Damptronic and Bilstein B16 Damptronic Clubsport. The clubsport having independent Bump and Rebound dials. Is there any benefit to having the clubsport over a regular one if using the DSC?
Thank you.
AFIAK the Clubsport is a 2-way *manually*adjustable shock vs the Damptronic which is PASM compatible, therefore the former is *not* compatible with either OEM PASM or DSC...
^ That is correct. Clubsport is not electronic dampers. Thanks for chiming in, Larry.
No problem!
I would also observe that with any manual shock whether it be 1,2, or 3 way adjustable, the adjustments you will make will be a *compromise* setting "averaged" over the entire length of the track ...
with a system like PASM and DSC in particular the car is constantly adjusting the suspension based upon feedback from the various sensors applied thru the current suspension "map" the controller is using in order to dynamically change the response of each shock...
Its clearly a more adaptive system ... esp when combined with the tractive shocks which can respond significantly faster than the OEM Bilsteins...
I have a 997.2 DSC but upgraded to full oem coilovers from a 997.2 GT3 RS. Do I need to update the controller or do I run the base 997.2 preloaded file?
Question regarding using z axis in a 2005 C2S 997.1.
I find I'm having a real problem with the car bottoming out (hitting bumpstops/scraping plastics) while in general road driving, most especially when on straight roads when going through road dips etc. I have an aerokit and gt3 cooling ducts and because the car seems to "dip" a lot these touch the road and are getting scraped, far more so than when using the porsche PASM controller.
Front struts and bump stops have just been replaced, car is standard height, not lowered.
Now, of course, because it's in a straight line road (for eg) the only parameter that is controlling the shocks is the G comfort "Default rate". I have 10 for normal and 20 for sport, a little more than what others seem to. Porsche PASM normal is supposedly 20. So theoretically the only thing we can do is increase the default rate parameter.
So what we wanna do is stiffen the struts in a dip so that this doesn't happen, BUT the 997.1 doesn't have any suspension deflection pots.
However, we DO have a 3 axis accelerometer in the car now (to run the DSC).
So my question is thus: Can we use the z axis of the accelerometer to do a psuedo control of the system like having height pots, to add a similar "page" to the controller functions like the "speed" page to dial out behaviour like this? For eg you could have a ramp up of the controller output as z axis increased, or decreased, or whatever testing showed you needed. You could probably eventually do this for any mode, but initially for the comfort parameter table?
Thoughts???
It is very unusual for AeroKit front spoiler lip to scrap during road dips especially at OEM spec ride height. The OEM bump rubbers are suppose to prevent enough suspension travel for scraping to occur. I don't know all the specifics in your particular situation but as far as the DSC software is concern, the standard DSC mapping was developed to utilize each damper's full dynamic range from full soft to full stiff. With a front spoiler lip that's 30mm or so lower extra measures can be taken with DSC software by doing the following in any combination:
1. Change the Shock Calibration of the Front shocks by 200mA.
2. Increase the % in the Speed table for dips that occur at those speeds.
3. Decrease the Speed G-Limit Threshold in the Speed table.
4. Decrease the Sensitivity and G-Rate Max in the GForce table.
5. You can increase the % in each cell of the GForce table but that'll only work if the dip(s) generate enough Vertical GForce to exceed G-Max Rate.
If you have DSC Tuner version 1.8.3, there's a "Help" button on each table to describe each function.
Again the scrapping is very unusual. For reference, there are many GT3's using DSC, many have Cup front spoiler lip that are even lower than the standard GT3 lip along with lowered ride height, driven on race tracks with high speed elevation changes using standard DSC mapping with no issue.
If you have made any changes to your map, email to me for a look. Email is: tchan@tpcracing.com
I have a 997.2 DSC but upgraded to full oem coilovers from a 997.2 GT3 RS. Do I need to update the controller or do I run the base 997.2 preloaded file?
No change is necessary. Its plug & play. As I said in the previous post, the standard DSC mapping was developed to utilize each damper's full dynamic range, on all dampers including the GT3 RS. If your personal preference is a stiffer ride with zero load then you can narrow the dynamic range by shorting the soft end of the range. For aggressive street or track driving it doesn't matter because there's enough g-force load to access the stiffer end of the dynamic range.
I would also observe that with any manual shock whether it be 1,2, or 3 way adjustable, the adjustments you will make will be a *compromise* setting "averaged" over the entire length of the track ...
with a system like PASM and DSC in particular the car is constantly adjusting the suspension based upon feedback from the various sensors applied thru the current suspension "map" the controller is using in order to dynamically change the response of each shock...
Its clearly a more adaptive system ... esp when combined with the tractive shocks which can respond significantly faster than the OEM Bilsteins...
No change is necessary. Its plug & play. As I said in the previous post, the standard DSC mapping was developed to utilize each damper's full dynamic range, on all dampers including the GT3 RS. If your personal preference is a stiffer ride with zero load then you can narrow the dynamic range by shorting the soft end of the range. For aggressive street or track driving it doesn't matter because there's enough g-force load to access the stiffer end of the dynamic range.
It is very unusual for AeroKit front spoiler lip to scrap during road dips especially at OEM spec ride height. The OEM bump rubbers are suppose to prevent enough suspension travel for scraping to occur. I don't know all the specifics in your particular situation but as far as the DSC software is concern, the standard DSC mapping was developed to utilize each damper's full dynamic range from full soft to full stiff. With a front spoiler lip that's 30mm or so lower extra measures can be taken with DSC software by doing the following in any combination:
1. Change the Shock Calibration of the Front shocks by 200mA.
2. Increase the % in the Speed table for dips that occur at those speeds.
3. Decrease the Speed G-Limit Threshold in the Speed table.
4. Decrease the Sensitivity and G-Rate Max in the GForce table.
5. You can increase the % in each cell of the GForce table but that'll only work if the dip(s) generate enough Vertical GForce to exceed G-Max Rate.
If you have DSC Tuner version 1.8.3, there's a "Help" button on each table to describe each function.
Again the scrapping is very unusual. For reference, there are many GT3's using DSC, many have Cup front spoiler lip that are even lower than the standard GT3 lip along with lowered ride height, driven on race tracks with high speed elevation changes using standard DSC mapping with no issue.
If you have made any changes to your map, email to me for a look. Email is: tchan@tpcracing.com
It's more the GT3 brake ducting really - so the system is actually using the z axis and not just x and Y? Let me digest this response above.
To be clear, this never happens on the race track, only on back road driving. Here in NZ we have odd cambers and road dips and such. Not holes, just uneven road surfaces. I guess my point is the difference between the DSC and OEM box behaviour in these scenarios, and how to mitigate that, because the DSC is by far the more comfortable option in road driving.
The above measures are more like mitigation before the fact - I'm thinking of active feedback to control that immediate situation then revert to standard response - something like the braking table.
It is very unusual for AeroKit front spoiler lip to scrap during road dips especially at OEM spec ride height. The OEM bump rubbers are suppose to prevent enough suspension travel for scraping to occur. I don't know all the specifics in your particular situation but as far as the DSC software is concern, the standard DSC mapping was developed to utilize each damper's full dynamic range from full soft to full stiff. With a front spoiler lip that's 30mm or so lower extra measures can be taken with DSC software by doing the following in any combination:
1. Change the Shock Calibration of the Front shocks by 200mA.
2. Increase the % in the Speed table for dips that occur at those speeds.
3. Decrease the Speed G-Limit Threshold in the Speed table.
4. Decrease the Sensitivity and G-Rate Max in the GForce table.
5. You can increase the % in each cell of the GForce table but that'll only work if the dip(s) generate enough Vertical GForce to exceed G-Max Rate.
If you have DSC Tuner version 1.8.3, there's a "Help" button on each table to describe each function.
Again the scrapping is very unusual. For reference, there are many GT3's using DSC, many have Cup front spoiler lip that are even lower than the standard GT3 lip along with lowered ride height, driven on race tracks with high speed elevation changes using standard DSC mapping with no issue.
If you have made any changes to your map, email to me for a look. Email is: tchan@tpcracing.com
Regarding speed table - if I Decrease the Speed G-Limit Threshold in the Speed table, then the limits at which the speed % changes apply will be even less (if the "help" button is describing the table correctly). Wouldn't I want to make it harder for the speed % changes to not apply, i.e INCREASE the G limit threshold so that those % increases are there for more demanding excursions of the accelerometer?
Thanks for the clarification. I had a chance to look at a 997 Carrera S with GT3 brake ducts today. They actually have pretty good ground clearance.
Originally Posted by floatingkiwi
so the system is actually using the z axis and not just x and Y?
Yes, DSC reads the G-force sensor data in 3-axis ( Longitudinal, Vertical, and Horizontal) at 200x per second. The DSC commands will not be the limiting factor. For this particular movement(high-velocity suspension travel, expressed by inches per second of up/down movement, greater than 8 inches per second) the reaction time of the OEM PASM dampers will be the limitation. The OEM PASM dampers reaction time is ~100 millisecond. Tractive dampers is ~6 millisecond.
Originally Posted by floatingkiwi
To be clear, this never happens on the race track, only on back road driving. Here in NZ we have odd cambers and road dips and such. Not holes, just uneven road surfaces. I guess my point is the difference between the DSC and OEM box behaviour in these scenarios, and how to mitigate that, because the DSC is by far the more comfortable option in road driving.
The standard DSC calibration utilizes nearly the full range of the dampers. As such, when the DSC commands are at or near full soft more suspension travel is expected. Usually this is not an issue, except in this particular circumstance there are specific variables are: 1) a "lower hanging" item has been added on to the car, 2) the factory Carrera S bump rubber and coil springs doesn't help prevent lower hanging GT3 brake ducts from contact, 3) the type of public roads are not great for sports cars.
Using DSC software, there's a number of way(s) to firm up the suspension to prevent the GT3 brake ducts from contact, just have to play around with it to find the way that you subjectivity find to affect road comfort the least.
Originally Posted by floatingkiwi
Regarding speed table - if I Decrease the Speed G-Limit Threshold in the Speed table, then the limits at which the speed % changes apply will be even less (if the "help" button is describing the table correctly). Wouldn't I want to make it harder for the speed % changes to not apply, i.e INCREASE the G limit threshold so that those % increases are there for more demanding excursions of the accelerometer?
Decreasing the G Limit Threshold will requires less g-force activity to trigger out of the Speed table to the "main" G Force table(which is firmer).
Originally Posted by floatingkiwi
To be clear, this never happens on the race track, only on back road driving.
Since most race tracks are smoother than public roads, the type of suspension movement is that occur are low-velocity to medium-velocity suspension travel, for example 1-4 inches per second.
Originally Posted by floatingkiwi
The above measures are more like mitigation before the fact - I'm thinking of active feedback to control that immediate situation then revert to standard response - something like the braking table.
For the type of high velocity movement you are talking about the OEM PASM dampers aren't going to react fast enough. A non-software solution is to install slightly taller bump rubbers since the OEM bump rubbers weren't designed for the lower clearance of the GT3 brake ducts on B roads. Another non-software solution is to remove the GT3 brake ducts for road use, and install them only on track.
Thanks for the clarification. I had a chance to look at a 997 Carrera S with GT3 brake ducts today. They actually have pretty good ground clearance.
Yes, DSC reads the G-force sensor data in 3-axis ( Longitudinal, Vertical, and Horizontal) at 200x per second. The DSC commands will not be the limiting factor. For this particular movement(high-velocity suspension travel, expressed by inches per second of up/down movement, greater than 8 inches per second) the reaction time of the OEM PASM dampers will be the limitation. The OEM PASM dampers reaction time is ~100 millisecond. Tractive dampers is ~6 millisecond.
The standard DSC calibration utilizes nearly the full range of the dampers. As such, when the DSC commands are at or near full soft more suspension travel is expected. Usually this is not an issue, except in this particular circumstance there are specific variables are: 1) a "lower hanging" item has been added on to the car, 2) the factory Carrera S bump rubber and coil springs doesn't help prevent lower hanging GT3 brake ducts from contact, 3) the type of public roads are not great for sports cars.
Using DSC software, there's a number of way(s) to firm up the suspension to prevent the GT3 brake ducts from contact, just have to play around with it to find the way that you subjectivity find to affect road comfort the least.
Decreasing the G Limit Threshold will requires less g-force activity to trigger out of the Speed table to the "main" G Force table(which is firmer).
Since most race tracks are smoother than public roads, the type of suspension movement is that occur are low-velocity to medium-velocity suspension travel, for example 1-4 inches per second.
For the type of high velocity movement you are talking about the OEM PASM dampers aren't going to react fast enough. A non-software solution is to install slightly taller bump rubbers since the OEM bump rubbers weren't designed for the lower clearance of the GT3 brake ducts on B roads. Another non-software solution is to remove the GT3 brake ducts for road use, and install them only on track.
Tom, just curious what the reaction time on Bilstein B16 Damptronics are compared to the 100ms of the stock PASM dampeners and the 6ms of the Tractive dampeners.
I have my Damptronics full soft until 40% in street mode and have the enlarged brake ducts, both front and rear, and have never scraped either duct on spirited street driving, so they must react faster, as I'm also lowered a bit on the coilovers. I had to notch the rear cooling ducts for the 12" wide Forgeline wheels I'm running.
Tom, just curious what the reaction time on Bilstein B16 Damptronics are compared to the 100ms of the stock PASM dampeners and the 6ms of the Tractive dampeners.
I have my Damptronics full soft until 40% in street mode and have the enlarged brake ducts, both front and rear, and have never scraped either duct on spirited street driving, so they must react faster, as I'm also lowered a bit on the coilovers. I had to notch the rear cooling ducts for the 12" wide Forgeline wheels I'm running.
B16 reaction time is same as stock PASM. Both are made by Bilstein, the valve design is the same.
B16 have stiffer coil springs to resist bottoming. And you probably don't drive on roads that are non-DOT spec that have bumps that actually don't lift the tires. The tire and the duct sort of move together.
B16 reaction time is same as stock PASM. Both are made by Bilstein, the valve design is the same.
B16 have stiffer coil springs to resist bottoming. And you probably don't drive on roads that are non-DOT spec that have bumps that actually don't lift the tires. The tire and the duct sort of move together.
OK, thanks. I installed all the suspension components prior to doing the DSC box and the improvement with the B16s in regular suspension performance was significant. Instead of the rear end either wallowing up and down or being very stiff and abrupt (depending on the type of bump or pavement irregularity being encountered), with the B16s I could actually feel the suspension working (compressing, rebounding, etc). Then adding the DSC box to that setup and fine tuning it to "tone down" the normal street profile of the rest of the suspension mods, but still be able to have a fully active sport mode was just outstanding. It's why I recommend the DSC as the best bang for the buck mod on the 997 chassis. It's significant enough where prospective car buyers should be looking at S cars just to get the PASM building block in order to utilize your DSC box.
Thanks for developing and continuing to support such a game-changing product.
Decreasing the G Limit Threshold will requires less g-force activity to trigger out of the Speed table to the "main" G Force table(which is firmer).
Tom - this does not seem to be how the "help text" reads:
" The Speed tab is where one sets the speed at which the system does or does not influence overall damper force.The settings on this tab are used to provide stability as the vehicle speed increases from 60 to 150mph. Over 150mph, the last group of cells extrapolates out.
NOTE: The percentages selected in the Settings Edit Panel for each speed are added to the percentages in the G-Force table when the vehicle is at or above the set speed and below the G-Force setting in the Speed G-Limit Threshold.
Speed Table
The Speed Table has 60mph on the left, and 150mph on the right.The calibration can be changed the same way the shock calibration can be changed.Clear all values, input your 60mph values and your 150mph values, then click “fill empty” and the system will interpolate the rest.
Settings Edit Panel
Each selectable box inside the G-Force Table contains four smaller boxes representing each corner of the vehicle. The cells are arranged to match each wheel; the top-left cell is the front-left wheel, the righttop cell is the front-right wheel, the bottom-left cell is the rear-left wheel, and the bottom-right cell is the rear-right wheel.The dampers are set in each box by changing the percentage in the Settings Edit Panel. The percentage selected here represents the overall percentage of available damping force as set in the "Shock Calibration Table". Shades of grey directly correlate to the shock calibration table. Always remember to hit update to save in the cell you are editing.
Speed G-Limit Threshold Box
• This setting controls when the speed table is actively influencing the force of the dampers.
• Units are usually setup with .30G per second in all 4 values.This means when the car exceeds .3G per second in any direction, the speed table will no longer be applied in addition to the G-Force table."
So, what it seems to say is that as long as you are UNDER the Speed G-limit threshold then the extra % IS added to the gforce table, hence making things slightly firmer at speed, which is what we want in this particular scenario. If you lower this value then it seems to say that you are even LESS LIKELY to have your speed % added to the Gforce table.
However, what if you are still in the comfort G box and not necessarily the gforce table - is that what you mean? If so is the speed table not applied to the comfort G box/window but only when you get into the main G-force table? Is the help text not necessarily giving the complete picture here?
02-22-2019, 12:12 PM
