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Just curious..... you are sniffing values from the CAN bus no?
Would you know if Durametric and sniff the same values? Gforce, steering angle, brake, etc. etc.
I don't recall seeing these values in their Live Values section (I have the pro model). If we could see these values swing against time stamps Durametric provides, it may help in tweaking the software.
Glad to hear you love the increased stability from DSC.
To reduce front end lift during throttle exit you could try one of the two things below or combination of both:
1) Increase rear stiffness using Shock Calibration table.
2) Or use the lower portion of the Main G Table that represents acceleration. It is useful to know approx what amount of g force your car is subjected to when tuning this table.
The "Substantially Firmer" labelled file is only relative to the standard file, and only for G Comfort Parameter. It can be made more firm.
Tom, I'm running the slightly firmer file vs the substantially firmer file. I'm not the type to tinker with settings. I track once, or twice a year. Thinking the file I am running is good for track days by setting it to sport mode. Daily driving I set it to normal mode. Happy with the setup for daily driving as is in the slightly firmer file. The question I have is as follows: how much different in sport mode is the slightly vs substationally firmer file?
First, although street legal, my car spends most of its time on a track. It has F&R TPC sway bars, TPC Toe and Drop links, Tarett LCAs, and Tractive dampers with the DSC controller.
I have been thinking about how the Brake Table intercedes with regards to the Main G-Force Table. As I understand it, the reason for the Brake Table is to act 'Predictively' to minimize nose dive (front wheel loading) under braking. Looking at the default values the recommended Decay value is 1000ms (1 second) the default Pressure value is 30 BAR/ms, and the default Speed value is 5mph.
If I am working in the Sport Chassis settings, I am wondering why 5mph is the default (recommended) Speed setting. When on track, front wheel loading would seen to be an issue during hard braking like at the end of a straight, so would it be better to raise the intervention speed to something like 40 or 50mph?
My concern is at a 5mph Speed value, would this table intervene under things like corner trail braking conditions?
Just curious..... you are sniffing values from the CAN bus no?
Would you know if Durametric and sniff the same values? Gforce, steering angle, brake, etc. etc.
I don't recall seeing these values in their Live Values section (I have the pro model). If we could see these values swing against time stamps Durametric provides, it may help in tweaking the software.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
AFAIK, Dura doesn't display live g force. But I could be wrong, best to contact them directly about that.
I do know that DSC software will display live g force in a graph format in the Tools>Record.
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Question About Tractive Damper Current (Ampere) Range and Calibration
The DSC-Sport Software User Manual lists the Tractive Damper operating range at 1900ma to 500ma, full soft to full hard. The 9x7_tractive_official settings file has a Normal Chassis range in the Shock Calibration table as 2000ma to 600ma. Is this an intentional 100ma shift of the Calibration table towards soft? If so what would the reason be for this shift.
Is there a dyno calibration curve available for the Tractive dampers. It seems like this might be helpful in setting up the Shock Calibration values. Knowing the dynamic effect between moving from 1900ma to1800ma, vice moving from 600ma to 500ma could be very beneficial in fine tuning a suspension using the Tractive dampers and a DSC controller.
Tom, I'm running the slightly firmer file vs the substantially firmer file. I'm not the type to tinker with settings. I track once, or twice a year. Thinking the file I am running is good for track days by setting it to sport mode. Daily driving I set it to normal mode. Happy with the setup for daily driving as is in the slightly firmer file. The question I have is as follows: how much different in sport mode is the slightly vs substationally firmer file?
Looking at the two files the second one is 5% stiffer in Sport mode at the minimum damping percentage(its 15% vs. 20%). So in my opinion it is not really "substantially" stiffer, its just a method of labeling the files. Both files will achieve 100% damping during track cornering/braking or whenever the g-force is at or above 1.0g.
First, although street legal, my car spends most of its time on a track. It has F&R TPC sway bars, TPC Toe and Drop links, Tarett LCAs, and Tractive dampers with the DSC controller.
Great suspension combo!
Originally Posted by His987CS
I have been thinking about how the Brake Table intercedes with regards to the Main G-Force Table. As I understand it, the reason for the Brake Table is to act 'Predictively' to minimize nose dive (front wheel loading) under braking. Looking at the default values the recommended Decay value is 1000ms (1 second) the default Pressure value is 30 BAR/ms, and the default Speed value is 5mph.
If I am working in the Sport Chassis settings, I am wondering why 5mph is the default (recommended) Speed setting. When on track, front wheel loading would seen to be an issue during hard braking like at the end of a straight, so would it be better to raise the intervention speed to something like 40 or 50mph?
The DSC Brake table uses actual brake pressure data from the CAN bus to "preload" the vehicle before the braking g-force occurs. There is a window of time from which when the driver pushed the brake pedal to the brake pads grab the rotors to the tire patch grips the surface, then to the vehicle diving from the braking motion to produce the g-force. Based on the raising brake pressure, DSC Brake table commands the front and rear dampers to be stiffer before the vehicle dives from braking. By stiffening up the front damper compression and rear rebound before the vehicle dives less peak stiffness is needed than after the dives occurs. This also improves stability and grip, and substantially less ABS intervention for a given peak brake pressure. And in some case help prevent ice mode by preloading the suspension to make the g-force raise less abrupt for a given brake pressure raising profile. Preloading the suspension before the dive ultimately gives the driver more flexibility during hard braking. It like being able to stop time and have a team of mechanics put stiffer suspension on your car during a braking event! And then the stiffness is carry over through the G Table.
Originally Posted by His987CS
If I am working in the Sport Chassis settings, I am wondering why 5mph is the default (recommended) Speed setting. When on track, front wheel loading would seen to be an issue during hard braking like at the end of a straight, so would it be better to raise the intervention speed to something like 40 or 50mph?
The Threshold box inside the Brake Table functions for brake pedal release only. The screenshot below means whenever the vehicle is being driven 5 mph or any speed that's above 5 mph, and when the brake line pressure is decreasing from a braking event down to 30 bar of brake line pressure, the DSC will hold the damping stiffness for a Decay rate of 1000 millisecond(1.0 second).
This is an awesome feature of the DSC- As the front dampers are on rebound stroke from reducing brake line pressure, this function holds the peak rebound damping for 1000mS for example when brake line pressure drops from a peak of 50 bar down to 30 bar. Again, its like stopping time during the tail end of a braking event which is some cases the driver is simultaneously turning(trail braking), to have mechanic dial up the front damper rebound to better manage weight distribution! Or you can think of this like factory auto throttle blip function expect this is for aiding trail braking. As I am writing this now I realize this DSC function makes the car turn even better for non-trail brakers!
Originally Posted by His987CS
My concern is at a 5mph Speed value, would this table intervene under things like corner trail braking conditions?
Only if you are trail braking at 5mph or less. You can change these values all you want but I feel we have it sorted pretty damn good.
The DSC-Sport Software User Manual lists the Tractive Damper operating range at 1900ma to 500ma, full soft to full hard. The 9x7_tractive_official settings file has a Normal Chassis range in the Shock Calibration table as 2000ma to 600ma. Is this an intentional 100ma shift of the Calibration table towards soft? If so what would the reason be for this shift.
Is there a dyno calibration curve available for the Tractive dampers. It seems like this might be helpful in setting up the Shock Calibration values. Knowing the dynamic effect between moving from 1900ma to1800ma, vice moving from 600ma to 500ma could be very beneficial in fine tuning a suspension using the Tractive dampers and a DSC controller.
TIA
Tratives can be run 2000mA to 0mA if one so desires. But I find that >1850mA is unnecessarily soft for any practical use, and <400mA the weight transfer is not ideal for many sports car.
...The Threshold box inside the Brake Table functions for brake pedal release only. This is an awesome feature of the DSC- As the front dampers are on rebound stroke from reducing brake line pressure, this function holds the peak rebound damping for 1000mS for example when brake line pressure drops from a peak of 50 bar down to 30 bar. Again, its like stopping time during the tail end of a braking event which is some cases the driver is simultaneously turning(trail braking), to have mechanic dial up the front damper rebound to better manage weight distribution! Or you can think of this like factory auto throttle blip function expect this is for aiding trail braking. As I am writing this now I realize this DSC function makes the car turn even better for non-trail brakers!...
Ah, now I get it. I was looking at this being applied on compression not rebound. The values now make much more sense to me.
Tratives can be run 2000mA to 0mA if one so desires. But I find that >1850mA is unnecessarily soft for any practical use, and <400mA the weight transfer is not ideal for many sports car.
Thank you again, very helpful information.
Did you have an answer for the second part of my question:
Is there a dyno calibration curve available for the Tractive dampers?
It seems like this might be helpful in setting up the Shock Calibration values. Knowing the dynamic effect between moving from 1900ma to1800ma, vice moving from 600ma to 500ma could be very beneficial in fine tuning a suspension using the Tractive dampers and a DSC controller.
Do we already have values to populate the steering table, brake and acceleration tables to make the experience with the dsc module even better? I recall some modules did not populate these tables yet...
I took a similar path to Croc999 and ended up here:
My Sport mode is now really just for autocrossing. I don't feel that I know enough to change anything else at this time. My 2 "My Settings" files can be downloaded via my website if anyone wants to try them. I took DSC's "Firmer" file and modded from there.
Tom- have you guys looked into a fee service to do a custom file for people if they send in corner weights, data log, etc. I'd pay something reasonable, or ***** my car out at events with sponsor stickers.
The DSC Brake table uses actual brake pressure data from the CAN bus to "preload" the vehicle before the braking g-force occurs. There is a window of time from which when the driver pushed the brake pedal to the brake pads grab the rotors to the tire patch grips the surface, then to the vehicle diving from the braking motion to produce the g-force.
Based on the raising brake pressure, DSC Brake table commands the front and rear dampers to be stiffer before the vehicle dives from braking.
By stiffening up the front damper compression and rear rebound before the vehicle dives less peak stiffness is needed than after the dives occurs.
This also improves stability and grip, and substantially less ABS intervention for a given peak brake pressure. And in some case help prevent ice mode by preloading the suspension to make the g-force raise less abrupt for a given brake pressure raising profile.
Preloading the suspension before the dive ultimately gives the driver more flexibility during hard braking.
It like being able to stop time and have a team of mechanics put stiffer suspension on your car during a braking event!
And then the stiffness is carry over through the G Table.
...
The DSC Brake table uses actual brake pressure data from the CAN bus to "preload" the vehicle before the braking g-force occurs. There is a window of time from which when the driver pushed the brake pedal to the brake pads grab the rotors to the tire patch grips the surface, then to the vehicle diving from the braking motion to produce the g-force. Based on the raising brake pressure, DSC Brake table commands the front and rear dampers to be stiffer before the vehicle dives from braking. By stiffening up the front damper compression and rear rebound before the vehicle dives less peak stiffness is needed than after the dives occurs. This also improves stability and grip, and substantially less ABS intervention for a given peak brake pressure. And in some case help prevent ice mode by preloading the suspension to make the g-force raise less abrupt for a given brake pressure raising profile. Preloading the suspension before the dive ultimately gives the driver more flexibility during hard braking. It like being able to stop time and have a team of mechanics put stiffer suspension on your car during a braking event! And then the stiffness is carry over through the G Table.
The Threshold box inside the Brake Table functions for brake pedal release only. The screenshot below means whenever the vehicle is being driven 5 mph or any speed that's above 5 mph, and when the brake line pressure is decreasing from a braking event down to 30 bar of brake line pressure, the DSC will hold the damping stiffness for a Decay rate of 1000 millisecond(1.0 second).
This is an awesome feature of the DSC- As the front dampers are on rebound stroke from reducing brake line pressure, this function holds the peak rebound damping for 1000mS for example when brake line pressure drops from a peak of 50 bar down to 30 bar. Again, its like stopping time during the tail end of a braking event which is some cases the driver is simultaneously turning(trail braking), to have mechanic dial up the front damper rebound to better manage weight distribution! Or you can think of this like factory auto throttle blip function expect this is for aiding trail braking. As I am writing this now I realize this DSC function makes the car turn even better for non-trail brakers!
Only if you are trail braking at 5mph or less. You can change these values all you want but I feel we have it sorted pretty damn good.
Hey Tom, As I was reading the DSC-Sport Software User Manual it occurred that what is in that document would seem to conflict with the information you provided. Can you shed some light on this for us. Is the User Manual in error? Or perhaps I am still misunderstanding this whole issue.
Here is what I am looking at in the User Manual:
The Brake Table is where one sets the damping force modifier for each damper for any given brake pressure input force. By utilizing brake pressure the damper force can be increased before the vehicle begins diving under braking or waiting for the G sensor. This is a predictive strategy. The brake table is used to slow the weight transfer to the front tires, provide more front grip and help reduce ABS intervention (when equipped). The rear dampers are stiffened to prevent (slow) the weight transfer to the front tires and increase rear grip. This also helps reduce the load on the front tires and un-wanted ABS intervention.
Frankly I have not read the manual. I know what I know by working with the engineers. The wording is different but looks like the same description to me.
08-10-2017, 02:08 PM
You can change these values all you want but I feel we have it sorted pretty damn good.
