996TT Vs Supra TT
11-17-2002, 02:32 PM
#182
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[quote]Originally posted by George 911-V8:
<strong>ZACK: I see you have done a good job of getting the purist worked up.
<a href="http://pws.prserv.net/4play/911chevy/index.html" target="_blank">SWAMP MONSTER</a> <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
LOL, what is funny is that it is mostly not purists but people who don't even own sports cars and don't know the first thing about them.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
<strong>ZACK: I see you have done a good job of getting the purist worked up.
<a href="http://pws.prserv.net/4play/911chevy/index.html" target="_blank">SWAMP MONSTER</a> <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
LOL, what is funny is that it is mostly not purists but people who don't even own sports cars and don't know the first thing about them.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
11-17-2002, 02:54 PM
#184
Nordschleife Master
[quote]Originally posted by Water944t:
<strong>The 2nd Gen Mazda RX-7, with the tuned 12B rotary engine, won the GTU Championship from 1980-1984. 5 years of domination, from the Japanese 944.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
The 2nd gen wasn't introduced until 1986
<strong>The 2nd Gen Mazda RX-7, with the tuned 12B rotary engine, won the GTU Championship from 1980-1984. 5 years of domination, from the Japanese 944.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
The 2nd gen wasn't introduced until 1986
11-17-2002, 08:20 PM
#185
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Why not start at the beginning? It's fairer to take a look at the contenders ex-factory, and think about what you're going to do to them later, according to your priorities. I can only comment on the British spec Supra - a different animal to the rest. No convertibles, more power, leather seats, and a number of other items which are extras elsewhere. On the other hand the 996 Turbo is virtually identical worldwide as far as I know.
What else? The Supra is an older design which cost half the price of the Porsche, passed its European crash tests easily, but never sold well because they put the wrong label on it. Bad marketing - if they'd called it a Lexus it would have done quite well. Only 300 came to Britain before it was killed off by its lousy image (partly thanks to the big wing?), and its failure to pass the latest emission and noise tests.
Taking all this into account there is really less to choose between the two of them than you'd expect. Performancewise the Porsche is well ahead - remember I'm talking ex-factory - but for its time the Supra was remarkable. Both engines smooth and eager, with just a hint of turbo lag on the Supra - none on the Porsche. A big difference in the power band though. The Supra didn't wake up until it hit 4,000 whereas the Porsche feels seamless from 2,500. Noise? More pleasant in the Porsche without being obtrusive. One surprising thing about the Supra is its ability to put the power on the road despite being two-wheel drive. Very well behaved. Obviously the Porsche has an advantage here, but it only shows during a brisk standing start or in wet weather. Incidentally, I nearly always used the Supra with Traction Control off, but prefer to leave the Porsche PSM on.
A comparison of their respective steering and handling abilities in most Road Tests implies that the Supra doesn't 'communicate'. Have to assume their nervendings didn't extend to their posteriors, otherwise they'd have surely felt the obvious messages. Same with turn-in and understeer. To me the Supra was OK in both departments, and if the Porsche is better you hardly notice it. Different on the limit though - I get the feeling that the Supra is easier but slower through fast sweepers, whereas the Porsche needs more skill and delicate balance. My track days are long gone, so this is just a general impression without the on-track experience to justify it.
The other part of the suspension 'character' which matters to me a lot in day-to-day use is the ability to soak up holes in the road, i.e. I hate to torture a car. Strangely the Porsche Turbo is excellent - better than a straight Carrera, but not quite as 'soft' as the Supra, which ties in with the Porsche being the quicker of the two as a track car on the limit. Turning to the brakes I would say they are massively competent on both cars for road use, but better on the Porsche for really hard driving and on-track.
Build quality and safety aren't exactly the same thing - you can have a badly built strong car which will survive an accident well, and vice-versa. With the Supra being my first Japanese car I was surprised to find the build quality so good. Not quite up to Porsche standards, but not far short. Despite being driven hard on lousy roads for most of its life the only fault was a badly adjusted handbrake when new. Porsche standards are hard to beat, but the Supra wasn't very far away. The safety angle is hard to assess though - a front-engined car seems more reassuring, but then again Porsches are remarkably strong.
Maybe the most important part of the recipe - partly subconscious - is the way it all feels from the driver's seat. I quite liked the Supra layout but found the dashboard finish depressing. It didn't match the rest of the interior, in fact it looked as if no-one could decide what to do with it. A pity, because the seats were as good as Ferrari - best in the world - and the steering wheel/pedal relationship was ideal. Visibility was excellent, and there seemed to be plenty of space inside. For whatever reason, the Supra felt like a much wider car than the Porsche Turbo even though it wasn't. And with the Porsche you sit closer to your passenger - if you have one. I try to avoid them....
The Porsche feels great - again I disagree with the Road Tests - I think the layout is just about perfect. Only complaint is the fixed-height steering wheel. Too high for me because I like the thing almost touching my legs. Otherwise, practicality, quality and appearance are all fantastic, and I really do feel part of the car, which is what you need if it's to put a smile on your face every day.
Equipment? Known in Germany as "der Mickey Mause" there's no shortage of anything in either car, depending on how you spec it. The Supra was well ahead of its time, and the Porsche has everything you could possibly want - not that these things should figure in a performance car. Just to contradict myself I'll say that the seat position memory in the Porsche is a Godsend - I hate getting it right just for some idiot to alter it irretrievably when I'm not looking.
My conclusion for each contender when launched: If Porsche rates 100% then the Supra hits 90%.
Then you come to the modifications. Yes you can get the power from the Supra engine if you don't mind the maintenance and presumably shortened lifespan. Ditto the Porsche, but it was designed as a complete (very complete) package, and there isn't much point in spoiling the concept. Racing heritage? Porsche has infinitely more, but don't overlook the Supra's achievements in the Japanese GT Championship for several years. Frequently beating NSXs and Skylines, it has done rather well, and not just in Japan.
These are my personal thoughts on Wade's question, and I'm sure lots of people will disagree with me. Good!
What else? The Supra is an older design which cost half the price of the Porsche, passed its European crash tests easily, but never sold well because they put the wrong label on it. Bad marketing - if they'd called it a Lexus it would have done quite well. Only 300 came to Britain before it was killed off by its lousy image (partly thanks to the big wing?), and its failure to pass the latest emission and noise tests.
Taking all this into account there is really less to choose between the two of them than you'd expect. Performancewise the Porsche is well ahead - remember I'm talking ex-factory - but for its time the Supra was remarkable. Both engines smooth and eager, with just a hint of turbo lag on the Supra - none on the Porsche. A big difference in the power band though. The Supra didn't wake up until it hit 4,000 whereas the Porsche feels seamless from 2,500. Noise? More pleasant in the Porsche without being obtrusive. One surprising thing about the Supra is its ability to put the power on the road despite being two-wheel drive. Very well behaved. Obviously the Porsche has an advantage here, but it only shows during a brisk standing start or in wet weather. Incidentally, I nearly always used the Supra with Traction Control off, but prefer to leave the Porsche PSM on.
A comparison of their respective steering and handling abilities in most Road Tests implies that the Supra doesn't 'communicate'. Have to assume their nervendings didn't extend to their posteriors, otherwise they'd have surely felt the obvious messages. Same with turn-in and understeer. To me the Supra was OK in both departments, and if the Porsche is better you hardly notice it. Different on the limit though - I get the feeling that the Supra is easier but slower through fast sweepers, whereas the Porsche needs more skill and delicate balance. My track days are long gone, so this is just a general impression without the on-track experience to justify it.
The other part of the suspension 'character' which matters to me a lot in day-to-day use is the ability to soak up holes in the road, i.e. I hate to torture a car. Strangely the Porsche Turbo is excellent - better than a straight Carrera, but not quite as 'soft' as the Supra, which ties in with the Porsche being the quicker of the two as a track car on the limit. Turning to the brakes I would say they are massively competent on both cars for road use, but better on the Porsche for really hard driving and on-track.
Build quality and safety aren't exactly the same thing - you can have a badly built strong car which will survive an accident well, and vice-versa. With the Supra being my first Japanese car I was surprised to find the build quality so good. Not quite up to Porsche standards, but not far short. Despite being driven hard on lousy roads for most of its life the only fault was a badly adjusted handbrake when new. Porsche standards are hard to beat, but the Supra wasn't very far away. The safety angle is hard to assess though - a front-engined car seems more reassuring, but then again Porsches are remarkably strong.
Maybe the most important part of the recipe - partly subconscious - is the way it all feels from the driver's seat. I quite liked the Supra layout but found the dashboard finish depressing. It didn't match the rest of the interior, in fact it looked as if no-one could decide what to do with it. A pity, because the seats were as good as Ferrari - best in the world - and the steering wheel/pedal relationship was ideal. Visibility was excellent, and there seemed to be plenty of space inside. For whatever reason, the Supra felt like a much wider car than the Porsche Turbo even though it wasn't. And with the Porsche you sit closer to your passenger - if you have one. I try to avoid them....
The Porsche feels great - again I disagree with the Road Tests - I think the layout is just about perfect. Only complaint is the fixed-height steering wheel. Too high for me because I like the thing almost touching my legs. Otherwise, practicality, quality and appearance are all fantastic, and I really do feel part of the car, which is what you need if it's to put a smile on your face every day.
Equipment? Known in Germany as "der Mickey Mause" there's no shortage of anything in either car, depending on how you spec it. The Supra was well ahead of its time, and the Porsche has everything you could possibly want - not that these things should figure in a performance car. Just to contradict myself I'll say that the seat position memory in the Porsche is a Godsend - I hate getting it right just for some idiot to alter it irretrievably when I'm not looking.
My conclusion for each contender when launched: If Porsche rates 100% then the Supra hits 90%.
Then you come to the modifications. Yes you can get the power from the Supra engine if you don't mind the maintenance and presumably shortened lifespan. Ditto the Porsche, but it was designed as a complete (very complete) package, and there isn't much point in spoiling the concept. Racing heritage? Porsche has infinitely more, but don't overlook the Supra's achievements in the Japanese GT Championship for several years. Frequently beating NSXs and Skylines, it has done rather well, and not just in Japan.
These are my personal thoughts on Wade's question, and I'm sure lots of people will disagree with me. Good!
11-17-2002, 08:46 PM
#186
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McNab, that was a great analysis of the 2 cars. Thank you for saying something extremely productive to this discussion. <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
11-18-2002, 04:03 PM
#188
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by topdaytrader:
<strong>Supra is just too fugly to drive and its so 90s.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah right, and the 959 is so much eighties..
<strong>Supra is just too fugly to drive and its so 90s.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah right, and the 959 is so much eighties..
11-19-2002, 01:32 PM
#193
Rennlist Member
[quote]Originally posted by Hamann7:
<strong>
And what I meant by your Honda vs. my 740 sport is a head on collision. Betcha I'll come out ahead <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />
</strong><hr></blockquote>
no ****, my car is about half the size and wait. Now run my 1958 caddy into your brand new 7 series and see which car walks away? Seems a shame it'd be an American built car that's almost 50 years older.
and i've been in a serious accident in a japan car, flipped a 94 RX-7 doing about 100. Walked out of the car with only a few scratches on my arm. I think you are ignorant to how much design goes into japanese car safety.
Also, the lexus is a cheap mercedes, they aren't in the same class, you can't compare the LS to the S class. And the S class isn't all of what it's built up to be anyways.
<strong>
And what I meant by your Honda vs. my 740 sport is a head on collision. Betcha I'll come out ahead <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />
</strong><hr></blockquote>
no ****, my car is about half the size and wait. Now run my 1958 caddy into your brand new 7 series and see which car walks away? Seems a shame it'd be an American built car that's almost 50 years older.
and i've been in a serious accident in a japan car, flipped a 94 RX-7 doing about 100. Walked out of the car with only a few scratches on my arm. I think you are ignorant to how much design goes into japanese car safety.
Also, the lexus is a cheap mercedes, they aren't in the same class, you can't compare the LS to the S class. And the S class isn't all of what it's built up to be anyways.
11-19-2002, 01:53 PM
#194
Rennlist Member
[quote]Originally posted by Hamann7:
<strong>McNab, that was a great analysis of the 2 cars. Thank you for saying something extremely productive to this discussion. <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
we sure know you haven't
<strong>McNab, that was a great analysis of the 2 cars. Thank you for saying something extremely productive to this discussion. <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
we sure know you haven't
11-19-2002, 03:39 PM
#195
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[quote]Originally posted by soon2be993TT:
[QB]
no ****, my car is about half the size and wait. Now run my 1958 caddy into your brand new 7 series and see which car walks away? Seems a shame it'd be an American built car that's almost 50 years older.
and i've been in a serious accident in a japan car, flipped a 94 RX-7 doing about 100. Walked out of the car with only a few scratches on my arm. I think you are ignorant to how much design goes into japanese car safety.
[QB]<hr></blockquote>
Yes of course I'm the one who's ignorant. Obviously, you know nothing about crush tubes, crumple zones, chassis design for off-center collisions, multiple airbag design, etc. You are foolish to think that a '58 Caddy is even remotely safe. Have you ever studied one iota of engineering or any kind of science for that matter? Obviously you have not.
The concept of equating big hunk of metal to passenger safety without considering other variables is foolish.
All I have to say to you is... WHATEVER. <img src="graemlins/sleep.gif" border="0" alt="[sleep]" />
[QB]
no ****, my car is about half the size and wait. Now run my 1958 caddy into your brand new 7 series and see which car walks away? Seems a shame it'd be an American built car that's almost 50 years older.
and i've been in a serious accident in a japan car, flipped a 94 RX-7 doing about 100. Walked out of the car with only a few scratches on my arm. I think you are ignorant to how much design goes into japanese car safety.
[QB]<hr></blockquote>
Yes of course I'm the one who's ignorant. Obviously, you know nothing about crush tubes, crumple zones, chassis design for off-center collisions, multiple airbag design, etc. You are foolish to think that a '58 Caddy is even remotely safe. Have you ever studied one iota of engineering or any kind of science for that matter? Obviously you have not.
The concept of equating big hunk of metal to passenger safety without considering other variables is foolish.
All I have to say to you is... WHATEVER. <img src="graemlins/sleep.gif" border="0" alt="[sleep]" />