996TT Vs Supra TT
11-24-2002, 07:50 AM
#226
6th Gear
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When Wade opened this discussion he asked for a comparison between the Supra and the Turbo. He did NOT ask which was the "best" car he could buy.
Somehow this thread gives the impression
that everyone thinks their present car is a worldbeater, surely a symptom of tunnel vision?
When I bought my 3.5 litre SS100 I knew it was the best car for me, but it never occurred to me that it might be the best car in the world.
When I bought my 300SL Gullwing, ditto.
When I bought my E Type, ditto.
When I bought my Ferrari Daytona, ditto.
When I bought my Audi Quattro, ditto.
When I bought my Supra, ditto.
When I bought my 996 Turbo, ditto.
If you get myopic about one make you miss lots of the best things in life!
The doors on the SS100 tried to fall off at 100 mph and the dash shook so much you got cross-eyed trying to see the instruments.
The 300SL needed new rubber and new brake drums every 2,000 miles.
The E Type produced 42 major faults in its first year (all taken aboard by the factory and cured in subsequent production).
The Daytona stank of exhaust fumes and needed new suspension bushes every 1,000 miles.
The Quattro needed a big fat German posterior (no offence to our German cousins!). With long legs and a short torso and no posterior I couldn't see out of the thing.
The Supra should have had its wing sawn off at birth - it antagonised everyone I ever passed (i.e. everyone!). There are other ways of engineering downforce.
The Turbo has a seriously lousy image in this country, so bad that it induces road rage - not my fault, but how do you teach people about good machinery?
But I loved them all. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Somehow this thread gives the impression
that everyone thinks their present car is a worldbeater, surely a symptom of tunnel vision?When I bought my 3.5 litre SS100 I knew it was the best car for me, but it never occurred to me that it might be the best car in the world.
When I bought my 300SL Gullwing, ditto.
When I bought my E Type, ditto.
When I bought my Ferrari Daytona, ditto.
When I bought my Audi Quattro, ditto.
When I bought my Supra, ditto.
When I bought my 996 Turbo, ditto.
If you get myopic about one make you miss lots of the best things in life!
The doors on the SS100 tried to fall off at 100 mph and the dash shook so much you got cross-eyed trying to see the instruments.
The 300SL needed new rubber and new brake drums every 2,000 miles.
The E Type produced 42 major faults in its first year (all taken aboard by the factory and cured in subsequent production).
The Daytona stank of exhaust fumes and needed new suspension bushes every 1,000 miles.
The Quattro needed a big fat German posterior (no offence to our German cousins!). With long legs and a short torso and no posterior I couldn't see out of the thing.
The Supra should have had its wing sawn off at birth - it antagonised everyone I ever passed (i.e. everyone!). There are other ways of engineering downforce.
The Turbo has a seriously lousy image in this country, so bad that it induces road rage - not my fault, but how do you teach people about good machinery?
But I loved them all. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
11-24-2002, 12:15 PM
#229
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well this has been one hell of a thread. Now I'm not sure I should have even started it! Some of you were very helpful though. I just thought it would have died by now!
An update: I received my 996TT last July. The car is absolutely incredible. The smile on my face lasts and lasts. When I get to take it to rural Eastern Washington and open it up for more than a burst here or there, I am in heaven.
NONETHELESS, I still think the Supra is a great car FOR WHAT IT IS! I sold mine just before getting the Porsche. Believe it or not, my wife and kids are pushing me to buy another SUPRA to replace one of our other cars [her convertible Mustang Cobra] because they miss it. We have one in our "sights" as I am writing this now.
Frankly, for me, the Supra is not in the same league as the 996TT but it IS a cool car! It IS unique! AND FUN!
There are many such cars out there, I wish I had a bigger garage .
<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> Wade
An update: I received my 996TT last July. The car is absolutely incredible. The smile on my face lasts and lasts. When I get to take it to rural Eastern Washington and open it up for more than a burst here or there, I am in heaven.
NONETHELESS, I still think the Supra is a great car FOR WHAT IT IS! I sold mine just before getting the Porsche. Believe it or not, my wife and kids are pushing me to buy another SUPRA to replace one of our other cars [her convertible Mustang Cobra] because they miss it. We have one in our "sights" as I am writing this now.
Frankly, for me, the Supra is not in the same league as the 996TT but it IS a cool car! It IS unique! AND FUN!
There are many such cars out there, I wish I had a bigger garage
.<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> Wade
11-25-2002, 09:59 AM
#230
Burning Brakes
Wow... I caught this thread kinda late huh? Yes I actually read the whole thing... not quite sure what I would reply with... I suppose Ill say this:
Wade, in terms of answering your question, and Supra kids, just for your understanding, there is no comparison between a Supra and a 996TT or a 993TT or even an 83 944. The Supra is (can be) a VERY fast car in a straight line, but its not a Porsche. Porsche is not about numbers, be it HP, tourque, or dare I say (for those of us who have not yet had out cherries popped at the track) lap times.
Porsche is about emotion, soul, and heritage. Driving a 911 you feel conected in every aspect to what you are doing - you dont get into the car, you "strap it on." The Supras I have driven did not have this feeling - they felt cheap, heavy, disconnected, and as though the car were driving me. The 911 is the last automotive constant in the world and there is a very good reason for it: While a Supra is a very fast car, thats all it is. A Porsche is a Porsche. While that comment may seem "ignorant" or just the easy way out of any "anti-P-car" argument - its true - go drive one with an open mind and youll understand if you dont swing the *** out under braking and kill yourself.
Many of the Supra kids that "defend" their cars by attacking other's are only contributing to the "ricer" image. You dont sound like automotive enthusiasts, you sound like your car is the latest and greatest way you can prove how much of a badass you are. This behavior is childish and directly proportional to ***** size.
I dont have the fastest car on the boards, god knows Im not the fastest driver, but come on people - am I the only one that actually appreciates these cars?
Wade, in terms of answering your question, and Supra kids, just for your understanding, there is no comparison between a Supra and a 996TT or a 993TT or even an 83 944. The Supra is (can be) a VERY fast car in a straight line, but its not a Porsche. Porsche is not about numbers, be it HP, tourque, or dare I say (for those of us who have not yet had out cherries popped at the track) lap times.
Porsche is about emotion, soul, and heritage. Driving a 911 you feel conected in every aspect to what you are doing - you dont get into the car, you "strap it on." The Supras I have driven did not have this feeling - they felt cheap, heavy, disconnected, and as though the car were driving me. The 911 is the last automotive constant in the world and there is a very good reason for it: While a Supra is a very fast car, thats all it is. A Porsche is a Porsche. While that comment may seem "ignorant" or just the easy way out of any "anti-P-car" argument - its true - go drive one with an open mind and youll understand if you dont swing the *** out under braking and kill yourself.
Many of the Supra kids that "defend" their cars by attacking other's are only contributing to the "ricer" image. You dont sound like automotive enthusiasts, you sound like your car is the latest and greatest way you can prove how much of a badass you are. This behavior is childish and directly proportional to ***** size.
I dont have the fastest car on the boards, god knows Im not the fastest driver, but come on people - am I the only one that actually appreciates these cars?
11-25-2002, 07:37 PM
#232
Racer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: SK, Canada
Posts: 328
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesnt a stock SupraTT get like 13.4@105mph? Thats pretty cutting edge if you ask me. You have to go all the way back to the 1978 930 to find a Porsche that will beat it. Truely amazing!
And someone said you can mod a Supra to 1000bhp? Ho-lee ****. I wonder if a Porsche can get modded like that? O wait.. says here they had a 1460bhp car in 1973. It wasn't for the street but man I bet that would go!
What about 911 engines? I read about a 911 named MobyDick that had a 845bhp 3.2L flat-6, alot more if they wanted to pass someone in a jiff. A magazine, I think it was 911&Porsche World that printed it, tested another, slightly slower, version of Moby(a Kremer K3 935) that ran under 8 seconds in the 1/4. Thats pretty good isn't it? For 1978? I mean its not a Supra but hell, for a car thats going to be full throttle for almost 24 hours straight.. and I hear a few people have similar engines in street-driven 911's.
So getting 1000bhp out of a 911 is every bit as do-able as getting it out of a Supra. Granted you will pay alot more to do it, but that only matters if you're relatively poor. Bear in mind that this is with air-cooled engines(except the heads on Moby). The new water-cooled turbos have even more potential and have barely any development time into them, when compared to the 10 years that the Supra has.
I love the fact that Supras can be made to do what they can do. I hate the fact that their proponents think our cars can't do the same. Porsches have been doing it for decades.
And someone said you can mod a Supra to 1000bhp? Ho-lee ****. I wonder if a Porsche can get modded like that? O wait.. says here they had a 1460bhp car in 1973. It wasn't for the street but man I bet that would go!
What about 911 engines? I read about a 911 named MobyDick that had a 845bhp 3.2L flat-6, alot more if they wanted to pass someone in a jiff. A magazine, I think it was 911&Porsche World that printed it, tested another, slightly slower, version of Moby(a Kremer K3 935) that ran under 8 seconds in the 1/4. Thats pretty good isn't it? For 1978? I mean its not a Supra but hell, for a car thats going to be full throttle for almost 24 hours straight.. and I hear a few people have similar engines in street-driven 911's.
So getting 1000bhp out of a 911 is every bit as do-able as getting it out of a Supra. Granted you will pay alot more to do it, but that only matters if you're relatively poor. Bear in mind that this is with air-cooled engines(except the heads on Moby). The new water-cooled turbos have even more potential and have barely any development time into them, when compared to the 10 years that the Supra has.
I love the fact that Supras can be made to do what they can do. I hate the fact that their proponents think our cars can't do the same. Porsches have been doing it for decades.
11-26-2002, 03:25 AM
#234
Burning Brakes
[quote]Originally posted by tony hersikorn:
<strong>Correct me if I'm wrong but doesnt a stock SupraTT get like 13.4@105mph? Thats pretty cutting edge if you ask me. You have to go all the way back to the 1978 930 to find a Porsche that will beat it. Truely amazing!
And someone said you can mod a Supra to 1000bhp? Ho-lee ****. I wonder if a Porsche can get modded like that? O wait.. says here they had a 1460bhp car in 1973. It wasn't for the street but man I bet that would go!
What about 911 engines? I read about a 911 named MobyDick that had a 845bhp 3.2L flat-6, alot more if they wanted to pass someone in a jiff. A magazine, I think it was 911&Porsche World that printed it, tested another, slightly slower, version of Moby(a Kremer K3 935) that ran under 8 seconds in the 1/4. Thats pretty good isn't it? For 1978? I mean its not a Supra but hell, for a car thats going to be full throttle for almost 24 hours straight.. and I hear a few people have similar engines in street-driven 911's.
So getting 1000bhp out of a 911 is every bit as do-able as getting it out of a Supra. Granted you will pay alot more to do it, but that only matters if you're relatively poor. Bear in mind that this is with air-cooled engines(except the heads on Moby). The new water-cooled turbos have even more potential and have barely any development time into them, when compared to the 10 years that the Supra has..</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are talking about IMSA and LeMans racing Porsches. Those engines probably do not have a single part from the street engines. The 1000 hp Supra was built on a street engine that came in a car sold off the showroom.
[quote]<strong>
I love the fact that Supras can be made to do what they can do. I hate the fact that their proponents think our cars can't do the same. Porsches have been doing it for decades.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Porsche engines cannot do the same. Plenty of Supra street engines have been built to over 600 hp without ever having the head off. They can take this punishment because they are over-engineered bigtime. Porsche engines were not designed for that, but then hardly anything else is, except maybe the turbo VW engines. Whether this makes a Supra engine "better" than a Porsche engine depends on your point of view. But Porsche has never been about maximum hp/liter anyway.
<strong>Correct me if I'm wrong but doesnt a stock SupraTT get like 13.4@105mph? Thats pretty cutting edge if you ask me. You have to go all the way back to the 1978 930 to find a Porsche that will beat it. Truely amazing!
And someone said you can mod a Supra to 1000bhp? Ho-lee ****. I wonder if a Porsche can get modded like that? O wait.. says here they had a 1460bhp car in 1973. It wasn't for the street but man I bet that would go!
What about 911 engines? I read about a 911 named MobyDick that had a 845bhp 3.2L flat-6, alot more if they wanted to pass someone in a jiff. A magazine, I think it was 911&Porsche World that printed it, tested another, slightly slower, version of Moby(a Kremer K3 935) that ran under 8 seconds in the 1/4. Thats pretty good isn't it? For 1978? I mean its not a Supra but hell, for a car thats going to be full throttle for almost 24 hours straight.. and I hear a few people have similar engines in street-driven 911's.
So getting 1000bhp out of a 911 is every bit as do-able as getting it out of a Supra. Granted you will pay alot more to do it, but that only matters if you're relatively poor. Bear in mind that this is with air-cooled engines(except the heads on Moby). The new water-cooled turbos have even more potential and have barely any development time into them, when compared to the 10 years that the Supra has..</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are talking about IMSA and LeMans racing Porsches. Those engines probably do not have a single part from the street engines. The 1000 hp Supra was built on a street engine that came in a car sold off the showroom.
[quote]<strong>
I love the fact that Supras can be made to do what they can do. I hate the fact that their proponents think our cars can't do the same. Porsches have been doing it for decades.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Porsche engines cannot do the same. Plenty of Supra street engines have been built to over 600 hp without ever having the head off. They can take this punishment because they are over-engineered bigtime. Porsche engines were not designed for that, but then hardly anything else is, except maybe the turbo VW engines. Whether this makes a Supra engine "better" than a Porsche engine depends on your point of view. But Porsche has never been about maximum hp/liter anyway.
11-26-2002, 06:23 AM
#235
Racer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: SK, Canada
Posts: 328
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A Can-am motor.. not an IMSA engine. The 935 engines shared lots of parts with the street turbos.. anyway..
I'm curious, if your doing back to back runs at the strip, how long will a 1000bhp Supra with stock internals last? Two maybe three runs? What is the composition of these Toyota cranks/rods/pistons etc.. I just can't see how stock parts can take that kind of abuse. I mean, if those are the stock parts Toyota's racing engines should be able to make 1000bhp for weeks on end. Can Toyota know that much more about making beefy engines than Porsche? Someone please enlighten me.
I'm curious, if your doing back to back runs at the strip, how long will a 1000bhp Supra with stock internals last? Two maybe three runs? What is the composition of these Toyota cranks/rods/pistons etc.. I just can't see how stock parts can take that kind of abuse. I mean, if those are the stock parts Toyota's racing engines should be able to make 1000bhp for weeks on end. Can Toyota know that much more about making beefy engines than Porsche? Someone please enlighten me.
11-26-2002, 09:58 AM
#236
Racer
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: New York City
Posts: 337
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[quote]Originally posted by tony hersikorn:
<strong>A Can-am motor.. not an IMSA engine. The 935 engines shared lots of parts with the street turbos.. anyway..
I'm curious, if your doing back to back runs at the strip, how long will a 1000bhp Supra with stock internals last? Two maybe three runs? What is the composition of these Toyota cranks/rods/pistons etc.. I just can't see how stock parts can take that kind of abuse. I mean, if those are the stock parts Toyota's racing engines should be able to make 1000bhp for weeks on end. Can Toyota know that much more about making beefy engines than Porsche? Someone please enlighten me.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have no clue what the composite of the pistons are, however Last summer I ran 13 RUNS in one day at a NJ drag strip running between 26 to 29 PSi on a bolt on modded single turbo supra with stock heads, and crank. A friend of mine also ran his modded 733RWHP TWIN TURBO supra, and though he blew his drive shaft, his stock block/head engine was still strong. Perhaps these guys can shed some light to the pistons... <a href="http://www.wotm.com" target="_blank">www.wotm.com</a> <a href="http://www.suprastore.com" target="_blank">www.suprastore.com</a>
RS
<strong>A Can-am motor.. not an IMSA engine. The 935 engines shared lots of parts with the street turbos.. anyway..
I'm curious, if your doing back to back runs at the strip, how long will a 1000bhp Supra with stock internals last? Two maybe three runs? What is the composition of these Toyota cranks/rods/pistons etc.. I just can't see how stock parts can take that kind of abuse. I mean, if those are the stock parts Toyota's racing engines should be able to make 1000bhp for weeks on end. Can Toyota know that much more about making beefy engines than Porsche? Someone please enlighten me.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have no clue what the composite of the pistons are, however Last summer I ran 13 RUNS in one day at a NJ drag strip running between 26 to 29 PSi on a bolt on modded single turbo supra with stock heads, and crank. A friend of mine also ran his modded 733RWHP TWIN TURBO supra, and though he blew his drive shaft, his stock block/head engine was still strong. Perhaps these guys can shed some light to the pistons... <a href="http://www.wotm.com" target="_blank">www.wotm.com</a> <a href="http://www.suprastore.com" target="_blank">www.suprastore.com</a>
RS
11-27-2002, 12:22 AM
#237
Advanced
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here is the new turbo going on my car: <a href="http://supraforsale.com/wotstag3tur.html" target="_blank">Turbo Pics</a>
Just thought that I would share with you guys.....
Just thought that I would share with you guys.....
11-27-2002, 03:24 AM
#238
Burning Brakes
[quote]Originally posted by tony hersikorn:
<strong>A Can-am motor.. not an IMSA engine. The 935 engines shared lots of parts with the street turbos.. anyway..</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just things like fan belts and header bolts? Or anything meaningful like rods or cranks or cases?
[quote]<strong>I'm curious, if your doing back to back runs at the strip, how long will a 1000bhp Supra with stock internals last? Two maybe three runs? What is the composition of these Toyota cranks/rods/pistons etc.. I just can't see how stock parts can take that kind of abuse. I mean, if those are the stock parts Toyota's racing engines should be able to make 1000bhp for weeks on end. Can Toyota know that much more about making beefy engines than Porsche? Someone please enlighten me.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I never said the 1000 hp Supras had stock internals. But they certainly start with the street block and head. I said 600 hp Supras were built on stock internals. Building that much ruggedness into an engine you sell in the showroom is not a mystery to Toyota or Porsche or anyone else. You just make everything a lot stronger and bigger than is needed for the rated 320 hp of a stock Supra. Toyota decided to do it and Porsche didn't. Simple as that.
<strong>A Can-am motor.. not an IMSA engine. The 935 engines shared lots of parts with the street turbos.. anyway..</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just things like fan belts and header bolts? Or anything meaningful like rods or cranks or cases?
[quote]<strong>I'm curious, if your doing back to back runs at the strip, how long will a 1000bhp Supra with stock internals last? Two maybe three runs? What is the composition of these Toyota cranks/rods/pistons etc.. I just can't see how stock parts can take that kind of abuse. I mean, if those are the stock parts Toyota's racing engines should be able to make 1000bhp for weeks on end. Can Toyota know that much more about making beefy engines than Porsche? Someone please enlighten me.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I never said the 1000 hp Supras had stock internals. But they certainly start with the street block and head. I said 600 hp Supras were built on stock internals. Building that much ruggedness into an engine you sell in the showroom is not a mystery to Toyota or Porsche or anyone else. You just make everything a lot stronger and bigger than is needed for the rated 320 hp of a stock Supra. Toyota decided to do it and Porsche didn't. Simple as that.
11-27-2002, 10:05 PM
#239
Instructor
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the supras can be very fast and the internals take a fair amount of abuse. i've seen a few of the 1000 hp supras, but they don;t ever seem to put down the kind of quarter mile times that kind of hp should. and, they never have handled well on any road circuit. i road race a well-modded rx7 single turbo with about 500 hp and high hp supras don't even show up at road courses. i've taken my rx7 to the drag strrip a few times running about 475 rwhp and run about an 11 at 125 with kumho victoracers at stock pressure. the problem with the 7 -- which i am keeping -- is that while mine has only blown once, the rotary has such a bad reputation for reliability. the gt3 will be a much more reliable car and will be almost as fast in most situations. -gordon
11-27-2002, 11:44 PM
#240
Nordschleife Master
Personally, I like the skyline 
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=013723" target="_blank">http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=013723</a>
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=013723" target="_blank">http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=013723</a>