996TT Vs Supra TT
06-04-2002, 09:03 AM
#31
[quote]Originally posted by Shank996TT:
<strong>Konstantine, or should i call you Consistantine. After reading your posts, I came to one conslustion....You are consistant on inaccuracies.
Frankly, if I had the energy to pick on each of the statements, I'd develop carpal tunnel syndrome. You are incorrect Chump!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Shank, are we all in agreement then that an '800hp' Supra will beat say the Gemballa 600 round the 'Ring?
What is a 'conslustion'?
<strong>Konstantine, or should i call you Consistantine. After reading your posts, I came to one conslustion....You are consistant on inaccuracies.
Frankly, if I had the energy to pick on each of the statements, I'd develop carpal tunnel syndrome. You are incorrect Chump!
</strong><hr></blockquote>Shank, are we all in agreement then that an '800hp' Supra will beat say the Gemballa 600 round the 'Ring?
What is a 'conslustion'?
06-04-2002, 09:16 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Christer:
<strong>
Shank, are we all in agreement then that an '800hp' Supra will beat say the Gemballa 600 round the 'Ring?
What is a 'conslustion'?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Nurburgring again:
7:32.52 current Road-legal car record Wolfgang Kaufmann
Gemballa Porsche 600 2001
7:49.xx previous Road-legal car record Herbert Shurg
Blitz 753 Challenge Supra 1999? 2000?
Point is both platforms can perform extremely well. Yes, the Gembella GTR600 holds the current record, but c'mon, 7:49 is no small feat either. And OMG, it didn't blow up on the autobahn! You guys can argue about 996TT vs Supra TT all day blah blah blah. It's all personal preference and bottomline they're both excellent platforms. One of the best advice I've heard is "Never become brand or make loyal, always look at the car for it's merits alone." It's funny though, I thought Porsche guys would be more marque loyal, but most of you are generally quite open-minded. Supra guys can often be extremely high on their cars.
Darren Foo
1994 Supra TT
1991 Eagle Talon Tsi Hillclimb racecar
1989 951S Long Gone but I miss it lots
<strong>
Shank, are we all in agreement then that an '800hp' Supra will beat say the Gemballa 600 round the 'Ring?
What is a 'conslustion'?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Nurburgring again:
7:32.52 current Road-legal car record Wolfgang Kaufmann
Gemballa Porsche 600 2001
7:49.xx previous Road-legal car record Herbert Shurg
Blitz 753 Challenge Supra 1999? 2000?
Point is both platforms can perform extremely well. Yes, the Gembella GTR600 holds the current record, but c'mon, 7:49 is no small feat either. And OMG, it didn't blow up on the autobahn! You guys can argue about 996TT vs Supra TT all day blah blah blah. It's all personal preference and bottomline they're both excellent platforms. One of the best advice I've heard is "Never become brand or make loyal, always look at the car for it's merits alone." It's funny though, I thought Porsche guys would be more marque loyal, but most of you are generally quite open-minded. Supra guys can often be extremely high on their cars.
Darren Foo
1994 Supra TT
1991 Eagle Talon Tsi Hillclimb racecar
1989 951S Long Gone but I miss it lots
06-04-2002, 09:28 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Christer:
<strong>
Shank, are we all in agreement then that an '800hp' Supra will beat say the Gemballa 600 round the 'Ring?
What is a 'conslustion'?</strong><hr></blockquote>
What is a "then that" and "beat say"?
<strong>
Shank, are we all in agreement then that an '800hp' Supra will beat say the Gemballa 600 round the 'Ring?
What is a 'conslustion'?</strong><hr></blockquote>
What is a "then that" and "beat say"?
06-04-2002, 09:35 PM
#34
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Why not accept Konstatin's point? It's really tough to build an engine to run at sustained high rpm. I'm not aware of any manufacturers other than Porsch that even tests at top speed for hours on end (wheras I believe the TT was driven for 24 hours that way)Even on a road course, the engine gets a breather under braking and cornering.
I have a number of really fast street licensed cars, including 2 built by Jon Ward for the La Carrera Pan America (including the winning Kurtis in 1991), and I can assure you that these purpose built race engines require a lot of attention between sustained high speed stints. Although I sold my street licensed Lola T165 Can Am car, that car typically needed $3000-$10,000 worth of attention after a Vintage race weekend (typically a 30 mile long feature event.)
While I've never been to the Ring, most of the stuff I've read supports Konstantin-the top dogs in manufactured cars (as opposed to purpose-built racers) seem to be Porsches.
As far as his spelling, big deal. I had 4 years of German, and couldn't come close to expressing myself in that language.
Lastly, very few of us (including me) have been in a modified Supra. I test drove a couple of new ones (stock) and chose not to buy one. Maybe the modified ones are great, but the Porsche TT starting point is better, so I'd guess with similiar massaging to both, the same would be true of the end point. But even with 700+hp, if it doesn't have suspension and brakes to match, it's not much of a contest. What I love about my X50 is that it's really strong all around, and while I doubt if I'll ever keep it flat out for long, I'm reasonably confident that it won't turn into a smoking mess if I do. AS
I have a number of really fast street licensed cars, including 2 built by Jon Ward for the La Carrera Pan America (including the winning Kurtis in 1991), and I can assure you that these purpose built race engines require a lot of attention between sustained high speed stints. Although I sold my street licensed Lola T165 Can Am car, that car typically needed $3000-$10,000 worth of attention after a Vintage race weekend (typically a 30 mile long feature event.)
While I've never been to the Ring, most of the stuff I've read supports Konstantin-the top dogs in manufactured cars (as opposed to purpose-built racers) seem to be Porsches.
As far as his spelling, big deal. I had 4 years of German, and couldn't come close to expressing myself in that language.
Lastly, very few of us (including me) have been in a modified Supra. I test drove a couple of new ones (stock) and chose not to buy one. Maybe the modified ones are great, but the Porsche TT starting point is better, so I'd guess with similiar massaging to both, the same would be true of the end point. But even with 700+hp, if it doesn't have suspension and brakes to match, it's not much of a contest. What I love about my X50 is that it's really strong all around, and while I doubt if I'll ever keep it flat out for long, I'm reasonably confident that it won't turn into a smoking mess if I do. AS
06-04-2002, 10:25 PM
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Alexanders Quote: "But even with 700+hp, if it doesn't have suspension and brakes to match, it's not much of a contest"
Who said the Supra doesn't have the brakes and suspension to match? Most modified supras above 700HP also get coilovers and 6piston brakes, though Supra stock brakes are of superb quality.
Modification of valve springs, and cam work alone will rev much higher than the 996Turbo. I believe the car is capable of smoking a modified 911 turbo in a straight away, 1/4 mile, top speed, long duration as well. I don't think the car is capable of keeping up with the Porsche in a road course due to its lack of low end torque - especially with a larger turbo enducing more lag.
Who said the Supra doesn't have the brakes and suspension to match? Most modified supras above 700HP also get coilovers and 6piston brakes, though Supra stock brakes are of superb quality.
Modification of valve springs, and cam work alone will rev much higher than the 996Turbo. I believe the car is capable of smoking a modified 911 turbo in a straight away, 1/4 mile, top speed, long duration as well. I don't think the car is capable of keeping up with the Porsche in a road course due to its lack of low end torque - especially with a larger turbo enducing more lag.
06-05-2002, 09:14 AM
#36
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<Yes, the Gembella GTR600 holds the
current record, but c'mon, 7:49 is no small feat either. And OMG, it didn't blow up on the
autobahn! You guys can argue about 996TT vs Supra TT all day blah blah blah.>
well I make it short so I can avoid many typos ;-)
the Supra came to the ring with 20 top engineers!!
it wasn't a road legal car. No way it could ever pass smog test and it was NOT on street tires (even if they say something else sometimes, they had MANY Problems, and used special fuel. Also the enginners was adjussted teh car with their lap tops all the time. Do not tell me this is a street car. A street car is one that drives the 600 km to Nurburgring turn the laps without problems and drive back home and this for years.
After it failed to brake the record for the top speed at the Autobahn it blew the engine at the second try!
At The hockenheim "small" GP F1 track was 2 sec slower than the Porsche Turbo. It is a handling track and power is not the most important thing. You can see how good the set up of you car is.
believe it or not. I was there and this is what happened. I do not care what the newspapers write.
Maybe you can have 1200 HP on a supra while a race car has max 650 HP (because it will not last if you crank the boost higher.) but if you check the races even at le Man Porsche runs almost stock with GT3 RS and 993 GT2 with 420 or 570 Hp and finish always ahead of Supras Nissan and whatever!
There is a reason why they do not win or why the chose to have less power.
PS: The driver and the top engineer from the Nissan GT-R ( my favorite car this time) with a factory nismo engine this weekend at the 24 H at Nurburgring has the same opinion. No way you can race or even drive fast for long time at these boost levels.
Their "factory" car with 550 Hp was also slower than the 410 HP GT3 NA Porsches and they had some Top drivers that know the ring like their pocket and they come for the third time to the 24 H at Nurburgring.
Believe it or not. They know what they are talking about.
I would like to see a Supra with 1200 HP at Nurburgring! Boost levels are free and you can run as much boost as you want. Come and see why a 410 HP NA Porsche is faster.
Or ask the US military guys that want to keep with Porsches at the Autobahn why their car blows after some minutes.
If you check the archives on Rennlist you will find these stories.
Maybe the Supras and co have 1200 HP but at the race track you can show how fast you REALY are.
Konstantin
BTW the Viper won this time but it was runing one class higher than the GT3 NA porsches.
No way you can be faster against 8 L race engine if you have only a 3.6 L engine and no turbo.
If only Porsche build a 996 GT2 Race car instead of the Cayenne;-)
A bone stock GT2 with AC, street tires and leather seats is about 10 sec faster than the bone stock GT3 at Nürburgring and still faster than the Highly modified "street" supra.
I quess if the 1200 PS Supra exists or would be reliable they would race it with 1200 HP and not with only 750 HP. there must be a reason why they say 750 HP and not 1200 HP, don't you think?
BTW2 the street version of the Dauer 962 with only 720 HP hit 402 km/H at the same Autobahn.
if I remember corectly the Supra was under 320 km/h and this is far less than what every tuned 996 TT today hits.
current record, but c'mon, 7:49 is no small feat either. And OMG, it didn't blow up on the
autobahn! You guys can argue about 996TT vs Supra TT all day blah blah blah.>
well I make it short so I can avoid many typos ;-)
the Supra came to the ring with 20 top engineers!!
it wasn't a road legal car. No way it could ever pass smog test and it was NOT on street tires (even if they say something else sometimes, they had MANY Problems, and used special fuel. Also the enginners was adjussted teh car with their lap tops all the time. Do not tell me this is a street car. A street car is one that drives the 600 km to Nurburgring turn the laps without problems and drive back home and this for years.
After it failed to brake the record for the top speed at the Autobahn it blew the engine at the second try!
At The hockenheim "small" GP F1 track was 2 sec slower than the Porsche Turbo. It is a handling track and power is not the most important thing. You can see how good the set up of you car is.
believe it or not. I was there and this is what happened. I do not care what the newspapers write.
Maybe you can have 1200 HP on a supra while a race car has max 650 HP (because it will not last if you crank the boost higher.) but if you check the races even at le Man Porsche runs almost stock with GT3 RS and 993 GT2 with 420 or 570 Hp and finish always ahead of Supras Nissan and whatever!
There is a reason why they do not win or why the chose to have less power.
PS: The driver and the top engineer from the Nissan GT-R ( my favorite car this time) with a factory nismo engine this weekend at the 24 H at Nurburgring has the same opinion. No way you can race or even drive fast for long time at these boost levels.
Their "factory" car with 550 Hp was also slower than the 410 HP GT3 NA Porsches and they had some Top drivers that know the ring like their pocket and they come for the third time to the 24 H at Nurburgring.
Believe it or not. They know what they are talking about.
I would like to see a Supra with 1200 HP at Nurburgring! Boost levels are free and you can run as much boost as you want. Come and see why a 410 HP NA Porsche is faster.
Or ask the US military guys that want to keep with Porsches at the Autobahn why their car blows after some minutes.
If you check the archives on Rennlist you will find these stories.
Maybe the Supras and co have 1200 HP but at the race track you can show how fast you REALY are.
Konstantin
BTW the Viper won this time but it was runing one class higher than the GT3 NA porsches.
No way you can be faster against 8 L race engine if you have only a 3.6 L engine and no turbo.
If only Porsche build a 996 GT2 Race car instead of the Cayenne;-)
A bone stock GT2 with AC, street tires and leather seats is about 10 sec faster than the bone stock GT3 at Nürburgring and still faster than the Highly modified "street" supra.
I quess if the 1200 PS Supra exists or would be reliable they would race it with 1200 HP and not with only 750 HP. there must be a reason why they say 750 HP and not 1200 HP, don't you think?
BTW2 the street version of the Dauer 962 with only 720 HP hit 402 km/H at the same Autobahn.
if I remember corectly the Supra was under 320 km/h and this is far less than what every tuned 996 TT today hits.
06-05-2002, 08:13 PM
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[quote]
I quess if the 1200 PS Supra exists or would be reliable they would race it with 1200 HP and not with only 750 HP. there must be a reason why they say 750 HP and not 1200 HP, don't you think?
<hr></blockquote>
Konstantin,
I do not disagree at ALL that a 1200hp Supra is not gonna last at Nurburgring. In fact it prolly wouldn't last on a regular track out here in North America. I agree 100% completely with you that a big turbo on a stock engine(any engine at that) with huge boost is not gonna be reliable. Hell, even a built engine with huge boost isn't gonna last roadracing. These 800+rwhp Supras out here are all street driven /strip cars. The only Supra in the US that competed in a high profile race ran conservative boost pushing 550hp. And this race wasn't an enduro race. My point was that the Supra could be a contender with the right engineering/mods. I find Blitz's attempt at the 'ring quite respectable, it WAS quite a few years ago was it not? You wouldn't consider for arguments sake if TTE built a Supra for the 24hrs 'ring race that it would be competitive like the GTR is? Obviously the factory team would be running around the same output as Nismo is, prolly 1bar, 500+hp range.
I quess if the 1200 PS Supra exists or would be reliable they would race it with 1200 HP and not with only 750 HP. there must be a reason why they say 750 HP and not 1200 HP, don't you think?
<hr></blockquote>
Konstantin,
I do not disagree at ALL that a 1200hp Supra is not gonna last at Nurburgring. In fact it prolly wouldn't last on a regular track out here in North America. I agree 100% completely with you that a big turbo on a stock engine(any engine at that) with huge boost is not gonna be reliable. Hell, even a built engine with huge boost isn't gonna last roadracing. These 800+rwhp Supras out here are all street driven /strip cars. The only Supra in the US that competed in a high profile race ran conservative boost pushing 550hp. And this race wasn't an enduro race. My point was that the Supra could be a contender with the right engineering/mods. I find Blitz's attempt at the 'ring quite respectable, it WAS quite a few years ago was it not? You wouldn't consider for arguments sake if TTE built a Supra for the 24hrs 'ring race that it would be competitive like the GTR is? Obviously the factory team would be running around the same output as Nismo is, prolly 1bar, 500+hp range.
06-06-2002, 01:41 PM
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I agree with you that if TTE or NISMO or another factory race department decide to build a car for Nurburgiring or Le Mans it will be competitive. What i want to say is that a car from a "tuner" with some bolt on parts that claims 1200 HP is not competitive.
Even if some guys think that such a car can be used for many thousands miles without problems, this is not true. If so why factory cars from the same company with half so much power blows? Do these tuners make a much better job than the factory racer department? I do not think so and everybody knows why the factory just race the car with "only" half as much power and three times less boost.
Konstantin
Even if some guys think that such a car can be used for many thousands miles without problems, this is not true. If so why factory cars from the same company with half so much power blows? Do these tuners make a much better job than the factory racer department? I do not think so and everybody knows why the factory just race the car with "only" half as much power and three times less boost.
Konstantin
06-07-2002, 12:58 AM
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Checkout this supra
9.0 in the 1/4 mile @ 160 mph on BF Goodrich Drag Radials. THIS IS NOT A BUILT MOTOR.
<a href="http://www.highboost.com/movies/TitanRace/titan9160.mpg" target="_blank">http://www.highboost.com/movies/TitanRace/titan9160.mpg</a>
<img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />
9.0 in the 1/4 mile @ 160 mph on BF Goodrich Drag Radials. THIS IS NOT A BUILT MOTOR.
<a href="http://www.highboost.com/movies/TitanRace/titan9160.mpg" target="_blank">http://www.highboost.com/movies/TitanRace/titan9160.mpg</a>
<img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />
06-07-2002, 01:38 PM
#41
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[quote]Originally posted by Shank996TT:
<strong>Checkout this supra
9.0 in the 1/4 mile @ 160 mph on BF Goodrich Drag Radials. THIS IS NOT A BUILT MOTOR.
<a href="http://www.highboost.com/movies/TitanRace/titan9160.mpg" target="_blank">http://www.highboost.com/movies/TitanRace/titan9160.mpg</a>
<img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
and pretty ****in good driven, how the **** did he do the 2-3 shift w/o spinning, let alone the 1-2 shift.
<strong>Checkout this supra
9.0 in the 1/4 mile @ 160 mph on BF Goodrich Drag Radials. THIS IS NOT A BUILT MOTOR.
<a href="http://www.highboost.com/movies/TitanRace/titan9160.mpg" target="_blank">http://www.highboost.com/movies/TitanRace/titan9160.mpg</a>
<img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
and pretty ****in good driven, how the **** did he do the 2-3 shift w/o spinning, let alone the 1-2 shift.
06-08-2002, 07:18 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by A Quiet Boom:
<strong>You'd be surprised at just how sticky those drag radials are
I've seen several 8.0 second cars pull off the 1-2 shift on a lenco without spinning.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The fastest drag radial car in the world does high 8's.......
<strong>You'd be surprised at just how sticky those drag radials are
I've seen several 8.0 second cars pull off the 1-2 shift on a lenco without spinning.</strong><hr></blockquote>The fastest drag radial car in the world does high 8's.......
06-08-2002, 07:44 AM
#44
Sorry should have said 8 second, not 8.0 second. And yes they are in the high 8's. One of the guys I know at my local track has an early '80s mustang coupe that is good for low 8's in the quarter, one day he decided to drive it to the track on drag radials and clicked off several high 8 second passes, then drove it home. This sparked some interest in the drag-radials among owners of other "potentially streetable" drag cars that previously wouldn't street drive them due to traction trouble on street tires, now we've got guys showing up in everything from 13 seconds and down on drag radials. Before drag radials came out if you had a really fast drag car it usually wound up as a "trailer queen" because they were just to difficult to drive on anything but slicks, that's how I ruined the fun of a perfectly good high 11 second street car, I made into a 10 second car and onto a trailer it went. At this point I've removed all the road legal stuff and it wouldn't be worth the effort to make it street legal again, thus I've lost interest in the car and I'm selling it. If I build another drag-car it will be my maverick set up to be driven to the track, not trailered. As for the fastest drag radial car being in the high 8's sure the fastest one that campaigns on drag radials maybe, but there's plenty of guys who don't mind throwing radials on they're race car for a little fun on the street. Sure it's foolish and dangerous but they still do it. 6 0r 7 years ago no one thought you could even get into the 9's on a 10" slick that was before 10" tire racing became so popular, now I think the record is somewhere in the high 7's but I could be wrong, bottom line is that suspension and tire technology has come a long way since then and while drag radials may never replace slicks they sure do make for some neat passes.
06-08-2002, 12:38 PM
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"Konstantin
BTW the Viper won this time but it ..."
Actually it was its second win in a row at the 24hr Nurburgring, third win of four starts. Great reliability..... Only 443 hp SAE net
BTW the Viper won this time but it ..."
Actually it was its second win in a row at the 24hr Nurburgring, third win of four starts. Great reliability..... Only 443 hp SAE net