Flat6 Innovations

No. That's all steel shards. The oil filter pic file is corrupted, will post it later.

BigShow

I’ve been lurking here for a while as well as a few other Porsche forums. These threads make considering a 996-911 purchase really challenging.

I’ll be in the fun car market in a few months. If I do buy a fun car in the near future I’m planning on keeping it until my kids put me in a nursing home.

The idea of buying a car with 30 k miles with a glass engine is unsettling. The high cost of replacement is disturbing as well as knowing it could fail dramatically at any moment. How do Porsche owners get any sleep?

It almost sounds like the best approach to 996-911 ownership is to buy a high mileage 996 drive it until the motor shatters, send it to Jake, wait a year then voila, a fun reliable sports car. But, if a car made it 150 k miles maybe that car will make it to 300 k without dramatic intervention.

If you buy a car with 30 k to 60 k miles there might only 2 miles left in it but the entry cost is let’s say $10,000 over the one with 150 k miles. The additional $10,000 entry cost is wasted on an unreliable motor, it would be more cost effective to spend that money on a robust rebuild (remanufactured) engine.

But a car with higher miles is going to have other problems, it’s going to need some love and $ over and above glass engine replacement.

Flat6 Innovations

Or buy the host "broken" and get a good deal. A company we work closely with has 1/2 dozen 996s at the present as well as a couple of Caymans that are great hosts and are 3 miles from our faulty, ready to be Rabyized!

This way no extra money is wasted buying a car that runs fine.

DaveCarrera4

there may be a small risk, and there are many opinions. Buy a higher mile car and spend several thousand on maintenance including the DOF or IMSB retrofit after a while, or buy a low mileage car and do the DOF or IMSB retrofit immediately, factor it into the sale price. In the end you spend the same amount on maintenance, you are just out the extra cash up front for the lower mile car. In my mind, usual car pricing strategy does not apply to this model. Buying a high mile 996 as I did, in fact, I sleep quite well; it's a car, not a family member.

Jake is in the business to rebuild these things. Perhaps the best known in the country? He has a hot line. Guess what he sees and hears all day? But how many tens of thousands more are out there purring along just fine? 2003 Carrera 4S Speed Yellow / 1955 356 Continental 1500 Rust Red

mklein9

Pretty much every 911 has had engine issues leading to known catastrophic failures. Some designs have been better than others, but I believe that to go back to a really solid engine you'd have to go pre-water cooled to either the 993 or the 80s 3.2.

I came from an '87 3.2 to this '02. The '87 had its problems, but they could be ignored until it failed smog, and there was little chance of catastrophic failure.

However, the progress made in handling, power, comfort, and overall usability as a daily driver in those 15 years is nothing short of amazing. When I drove my '87 while getting it ready for sale after I'd had this '02 for a month, it felt like an underpowered VW bug in comparison; the A/C doesn't do anything useful, the ride is rough, the G50 transmission has long throws, the trunk is tiny...

It's a tradeoff. There is an entire range of cars from '98 - '11+ that has its weaknesses, and how to manage that is going to be a unique solution for each owner and car. It is unrealistic for someone interested in these cars to simply write off 13 years' worth of production and, IMHO, very impressive improvements in the chassis and other non-engine components. It takes probably 5-7 years (warranty period plus a couple of years) before the issues with any model year starts emerging in large enough numbers to be statistically significant to let a used buyer make informed decisions. From this point of view, the 996 and early 997 are good candidates -- known strengths and weaknesses, a reasonable community of expertise, and an established market for improvements.

In any case, extremely careful and thorough oil system analysis seems paramount for these cars. Preventative IMSB replacement (for M96), a mag drain plug, and a spin-on oil filter (without the bypass valve) seem necessary at minimum. Extra oil sump capacity and cooling for hard use might be necessary. Maybe requiring cars that were regularly driven is important for maintaining oil films between bearing surfaces; mine was stored in Minnesota during the winters but oil changed every year (2.5k miles); maybe that wasn't good enough as Jake has found evidence of crank or rod bearing wear. More detail coming soon as the engine comes apart.

A possible alternate candidate is a Turbo, though, with the Mezger engine design, although the 4 wheel drive and higher complexity and maintenance costs brings its own set of issues.

I think, after letting this settle and hearing what others have had to say, is that the base factory engine has very significant weaknesses and the new owner must consider that $10k - $20k might be in the cards for them no matter the outcome of a PPI or whether the engine has 10k or 100k miles on it. But, the handling, comfort, and overall usability of these cars is simply fabulous. The engine seems to be the big, obvious weak point, and there are ways of dealing with that.

Flat6 Innovations

Mike,
That post was all I needed to understand that we are working together for a reason. You "get it", and we'll have an excellent working relationship moving forward.

Engine comes out next week. Maybe :-)

onewhippedpuppy

Mike, your Carrera was prone to snapping head studs and premature valve guide failure. Neither are fatal, but both are expensive. Great cars, but the 996 is in another league, especially as a daily driver. If you own a Porsche, repairs of $10-$20k are ALWAYS in the cards.

mklein9

For anyone still following along, Jake's shop has disassembled the engine and done most of the diagnosis work. There is still some work before a full diagnosis and repair proposals can be done, but here's some preliminary info. Hopefully Jake can add details at his leisure.

The most likely root causes were two-fold. First, the initial IMS bearing had started failing and was replaced at 28k without identifying or diagnosing any other issues (not to mention that the same shop did an RMS replacement and the new seal was falling out).

Second, the oil filter bypass valve's spring was far too weak and it appears that the filter was being bypassed a lot, not just under rare cases. As a result, initial debris from the failing IMS bearing quickly made its way to the main and rod bearings which showed highly advanced wear. The image below is one I took of one drop of my oil 500 miles after the oil change that showed metal in the filter; by its color it must have come from the main or rod bearings and Jake's photos bear this out. Just the fact that one drop contained a particle is pretty crazy. Metal particles are everywhere the oil is; Jake says it looks like somebody poured glitter into the oil. It's amazing there was no grenading yet. The new LNE IMS bearing with 12k on it was near failure, as were at least some of the main and rod bearings. Catastrophic failure would likely have happened within 1-2k miles if that.

On the positive side, the rest of the engine looks great and damage is contained. As I mentioned above, there's still some diagnostic work to do but this appears to be the general outline.

aviography

Uh Mike, are you sure it's the right image you intended to post? I see a pink segment with pink "1 mm" caption.

mklein9

That's right, see above the pink line for the particle!

Howaboutthat

What brand filter should we now be avoiding?

mklein9

Not filter, filter housing which has the bypass valve. That's a Porsche standard part. I'm going to replace it with the LNE bypass adapter and spin-on filter with both mine (996, 987).

That the failure of a $2 part (the spring, not the housing it's in) causes 10,000 times that in damage is mind boggling.

DaveCarrera4

Can the spring force be measured and compared to that of a new filter housing spring?

2003 Carrera 4S Speed Yellow / 1955 356 Continental 1500 Rust Red

Imo000

Is that picture of a slide under a microscope?

Howaboutthat

Thanks -- I did the LNE adapter a while back and hoped I did not stock up on the wrong filters.