Shavings from old failed IMS (??) now showing up?
03-20-2014, 10:32 AM
#181
NTSB makes recommendations....737's grounded (Alaskan jackscrew) 777's grounded (fuel icing B.A.) and so on...
Jake Raby makes recommendations......nothing
Hmmm, who was behind the 991 GT3 stop sale???
Jake Raby makes recommendations......nothing
Hmmm, who was behind the 991 GT3 stop sale???
03-20-2014, 12:01 PM
#183
Drifting
, I thought the distinction was pretty obvious, my response was going to be longer, but the above will do.But I do want to add that both must have the passion in their "business", else they couldn't do what they do.
As for the GT-3 stop sale, it's got to be due to bad publicity of a brand new top sports car model of a prestigious sports car marque, I'm sure the corporate lawyers (and likely marketing folks too) in Stuttgart HQ were panicking with potential repercussion if someone were killed in a fiery incident, especially so soon after Paul Walker's death in the CGT!
Last edited by aviography; 03-20-2014 at 06:38 PM.
03-20-2014, 03:22 PM
#184
Burning Brakes
The data isn't always biased. Its the interpretation of the data that is the issue. And therefore, the conclusions.
You experienced a major issue with your 996 engine. Jake works on broken engines all the time. Your perceptions are skewed.
If 5.2% of all 996's fail (totally made that up of course since no one knows for sure), then some people would "reason" that this is a low number...nothing to worry about. Others would say "holy crap!!!" and take drastic measures to protect their car and finances. That is why these threads bring out such diverse opinions.
As previously stated, most 996 owners are blissfully unaware of the any issues, or of Rennlist, or of Flat 6 Innovations, etc. Good for them.
In AZ, when someone sees a snake, it is always a rattlesnake..
As for statistics relating to failure, when a 996 engine fails, I would venture that the quick diagnosis is always the IMS, either due to a lack of knowledge or greed by the dealer/Indy. After all, as Jake often mentions, there are many, many more modes of failures than the IMS. Bottom line. There are no statistics on 996 engine failure (other than the extremely scientific poll at the top of our forum
)
So, IMHO, the "bias" is built on not only misinformation but a lack of information. Also, there really is not reliable failure data. Couple that with personal experience/tolerance and at the end of the day you do what you feel you need to do for your car, your wallet and your piece of mind. After all, that's all that really matters.
You experienced a major issue with your 996 engine. Jake works on broken engines all the time. Your perceptions are skewed.
If 5.2% of all 996's fail (totally made that up of course since no one knows for sure), then some people would "reason" that this is a low number...nothing to worry about. Others would say "holy crap!!!" and take drastic measures to protect their car and finances. That is why these threads bring out such diverse opinions.
As previously stated, most 996 owners are blissfully unaware of the any issues, or of Rennlist, or of Flat 6 Innovations, etc. Good for them.
In AZ, when someone sees a snake, it is always a rattlesnake..
As for statistics relating to failure, when a 996 engine fails, I would venture that the quick diagnosis is always the IMS, either due to a lack of knowledge or greed by the dealer/Indy. After all, as Jake often mentions, there are many, many more modes of failures than the IMS. Bottom line. There are no statistics on 996 engine failure (other than the extremely scientific poll at the top of our forum
)So, IMHO, the "bias" is built on not only misinformation but a lack of information. Also, there really is not reliable failure data. Couple that with personal experience/tolerance and at the end of the day you do what you feel you need to do for your car, your wallet and your piece of mind. After all, that's all that really matters.
03-20-2014, 06:57 PM
#185
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
I know at least one Boxter S owner that know nothing about it and has no plans to find out or even care about it.
03-20-2014, 08:02 PM
#186
Burning Brakes
03-20-2014, 08:22 PM
#187
Rat Balls
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Scottsdale AZ, USA
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Not hard to believe at all. In my area, Porsches of all makes and models are a dime a dozen. My next door neighbor has a 2004 C4S. He never heard of an IMS. I was kind--and did not go into it with him.
I can add that in my personal experience, this is more often the case.
Not everyone has the time, energy, or commitment to obsess about their cars like us Rennlisters do!
I can add that in my personal experience, this is more often the case.
Not everyone has the time, energy, or commitment to obsess about their cars like us Rennlisters do!
03-20-2014, 08:22 PM
#188
At a party last year and a 65 year old lady pulled up in a beat up blue 996 cab 6 speed she bought new. I assume she never tracked it, assume she never drove aggressively, and after talking with her she never even heard of any web forums or IMS issues. Said she never had a problem with the car.
03-20-2014, 08:37 PM
#189
8th Gear
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: UK
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Same in the UK - I think we are all guilty of thinking everyone who drives a 911 is a petrol-head. I have three customers - 2 with 991 and 1 with 997, none of them even know what size of engine they have, power output etc. All male. One female customer with older boxter puts me to shame on her technical knowledge - keeps asking me if my 996 40th AE IMS has disintegrated yet and when I have it booked in for next boroscope.
03-20-2014, 09:52 PM
#190
Drifting
The original owner whom I bought the car from is a software encryption guru, lives in a modest house, bought the car as his 50th birthday present to himself, paid $130K for the car since Canadian dollar was quite week back then.
As a software guru, he was not any forums and was completely unaware of the IMSB, just took the car in P-car dealership for service, that's it.
Us on Rennlist are a different hardcore group, no doubt about it!
As a software guru, he was not any forums and was completely unaware of the IMSB, just took the car in P-car dealership for service, that's it.
Us on Rennlist are a different hardcore group, no doubt about it!
03-23-2014, 07:16 PM
#191
Instructor
Thread Starter
Today I installed the LNE oil adapter and a Napa Gold 1042 full-flow filter on my wife's '05 Boxster (M97 IMSB). The car has 57k miles, and 4977 miles on the oil and filter. Of course, as the OP of this thread the heightened awareness of the issues prepared me for the worst and I looked very carefully at the oil, the filter housing, the filter....
Nothing. Zip. Utterly clean filter, oil, bottom of the housing. No sparkles, no glitter, just a some small black plastic chunks in the filter. Sending the oil to Blackstone anyway and will look at it under the microscope at work. Still to come is a full oil change in the next couple of weeks along with inspection of the mag drain plug installed at the last oil change and opinions on the black plastic.
We are the 5th owner of this car, all in CA coastal regions. I would bet few of the previous owners knew or cared one whit about IMS bearings or how to detect and head off wear issues. But we bought this car after a PPI by a seriously OCD mechanic who declared the oil and filter "immaculate" and I was able to sketch together that it was driven regularly and owners did regular oil changes below factory recommended intervals, maybe 7k on average.
Maybe this is how most of these engines go through life. It could be. None of us know.
OTOH one of the POs may have known something about IMS bearings, or learned about it one of the hard ways. '05 was the transition year for 987s between the M96 and M97 bearings. This was an April build date, so kind of later-ish in the year. This PO had a shop replace the leaking RMS and paid $400 in labor to get the IMSB flange off, but did not replace the bearing. A call to the shop indicated the only reason for that sequence of events is that the bearing was found to be the M97 style. At the same time the clutch was replaced. Soon afterwards this PO apparently got disgusted with the maintenance costs of this thing and sold it. So, somebody else paid for a bunch of big repairs, confirmed the M97 IMSB, and we got it for a depressed price. Not only that but my PPI showed a leaking water pump the last PO was not aware of, so we split the cost of replacement. To me this seems like a nearly-ideal way to go about obtaining one of these. There's still risk, but lower, and price was really good.
Nothing. Zip. Utterly clean filter, oil, bottom of the housing. No sparkles, no glitter, just a some small black plastic chunks in the filter. Sending the oil to Blackstone anyway and will look at it under the microscope at work. Still to come is a full oil change in the next couple of weeks along with inspection of the mag drain plug installed at the last oil change and opinions on the black plastic.
We are the 5th owner of this car, all in CA coastal regions. I would bet few of the previous owners knew or cared one whit about IMS bearings or how to detect and head off wear issues. But we bought this car after a PPI by a seriously OCD mechanic who declared the oil and filter "immaculate" and I was able to sketch together that it was driven regularly and owners did regular oil changes below factory recommended intervals, maybe 7k on average.
Maybe this is how most of these engines go through life. It could be. None of us know.
OTOH one of the POs may have known something about IMS bearings, or learned about it one of the hard ways. '05 was the transition year for 987s between the M96 and M97 bearings. This was an April build date, so kind of later-ish in the year. This PO had a shop replace the leaking RMS and paid $400 in labor to get the IMSB flange off, but did not replace the bearing. A call to the shop indicated the only reason for that sequence of events is that the bearing was found to be the M97 style. At the same time the clutch was replaced. Soon afterwards this PO apparently got disgusted with the maintenance costs of this thing and sold it. So, somebody else paid for a bunch of big repairs, confirmed the M97 IMSB, and we got it for a depressed price. Not only that but my PPI showed a leaking water pump the last PO was not aware of, so we split the cost of replacement. To me this seems like a nearly-ideal way to go about obtaining one of these. There's still risk, but lower, and price was really good.
06-28-2014, 02:52 PM
#192
Instructor
Thread Starter
Update:
Car is back from Flat 6. There were some weird issues that developed on the truck trip back that were solved by replacing the alternator (twice, first replacement was bad), and the crankshaft position sensor (the one installed by Flat 6 went bad soon after delivery and they shipped a replacement overnight).
Bottom line: the engine is great again, and better than before. It is smoother, quieter, and a bit more powerful in the upper-mid range RPMs due to improved intake valve seats and a slight compression increase which I asked for as an extra during the engine repair. Also has billet steel rods instead of the brittle stock rods, intended to be reliability enhancement for the occasional track/DE days. And higher grade timing chains, replaced water pump and thermostat, AOS, and various other normal or expected maintenance items.
And a big change completely unexpected: the gas mileage is, seriously, about 20% higher. I am now getting 21 mpg on my normal weekly commuting instead of 17+.
Hats off the Jake and the gang at Flat 6. I now have a significantly better engine with higher reliability parts. And saving gas costs!
Car is back from Flat 6. There were some weird issues that developed on the truck trip back that were solved by replacing the alternator (twice, first replacement was bad), and the crankshaft position sensor (the one installed by Flat 6 went bad soon after delivery and they shipped a replacement overnight).
Bottom line: the engine is great again, and better than before. It is smoother, quieter, and a bit more powerful in the upper-mid range RPMs due to improved intake valve seats and a slight compression increase which I asked for as an extra during the engine repair. Also has billet steel rods instead of the brittle stock rods, intended to be reliability enhancement for the occasional track/DE days. And higher grade timing chains, replaced water pump and thermostat, AOS, and various other normal or expected maintenance items.
And a big change completely unexpected: the gas mileage is, seriously, about 20% higher. I am now getting 21 mpg on my normal weekly commuting instead of 17+.
Hats off the Jake and the gang at Flat 6. I now have a significantly better engine with higher reliability parts. And saving gas costs!
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Cityfisher (10-26-2021)
06-28-2014, 05:04 PM
#193
Three Wheelin'
Good luck with it Mike. At least you get to enjoy the summer with it. Hope you don't have any more problems.
Dave
2002 Turbo - Basalt Black Metallic / 2003 Carrera 4S - Speed Yellow / 1955 356 Continental 1500 - Rust Red
Dave
2002 Turbo - Basalt Black Metallic / 2003 Carrera 4S - Speed Yellow / 1955 356 Continental 1500 - Rust Red
11-02-2014, 09:28 AM
#195
Three Wheelin'
