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If a synthetic super-fuel existed, we would be using it in ICE cars already, no EV element is required.
Using an ICE, which is only 40-45% efficient, to drive a generator at a 5-10% loss to charge the battery, to then to have another 5 to 10% loss to drive the EV motor, is far less efficient than just using the ICE to drive the wheels directly.
Even if it existed, that ICE dedicated to charging the EV wouldn't be anything like the ICE's we know and love. You couldn't rev it through the gears, it would just turn on and drone when needed -- not really anything like the ICE experience, and the drone from the ICE engine noise would worsen the EV experience -- all while being less efficient than just using the ICE to drive the wheels.
Maybe you are thinking of hydrogen-powered ICE's? I don't know how efficient they are, but they are clean from a carbon standpoint. Toyota is working on a hydrogen ICE, but it is driving the wheels and not a generator, so it's exactly like the ICE's we love. The problem has always been the practicality of producing and handling hydrogen, but at least Toyota thinks it will can be made practical as a fuel.
Google Porsche synthetic fuel. Porsche developed it with exxon mobil and seimans among many other partners. They have used it exclusively in the Porsche supercup series around the world over the past 2 years to test and show it. IT IS ALREADY A REALITY AND ONLY GETTING BIGGER.
More importantly, Porsche and Audi have stiff armed F1 into using synthetic fuel in turbo hybrids with the new engine rules starting in 2026. Same is happening as we speak in other racing series.
Audi bought the Sauber/Alfa F1 team. Porsche was in talks to buy 50% of Red Bull but the deal has fallen thru. Rumors are circulating on a Porsche purchase of Williams, McClaren or Aston Martin as potential targets.
Bottom line is this. Porsche didn't develop synthetic fuel for the supercup series and then stiff arm F1 into adopting it in their turbo hybrid 2026 rules nor develop a hybrid hypercar for wec and imsa because they just want to sell EV cars. They want to sell turbo hybrids that run synthetic fuel.
Most importantly, because F1 has mandated synthetic fuels in 2026, every oil company that partners with an F1 team will be manufacturing it as well. Hint, hint, if all the major oil companies build the facilities to manufacturer it for racing, they can also manufacturer it for gas stations.
Now is the time for everyone to start connecting the dots...
As a side note: this synthetic fuel can be used in any ice powered engine. It is not hydrogen. Do yourself a favor and Google Porsche synthetic fuel. Then google F1 2026 engine regulations. The future of the car industry is always what the racing community is developing and racing. They are developing synthetic fuels and racing turbo hybrids that will be powered by synthetic fuel that works in any ice engine. Hint, hint...
Google Porsche synthetic fuel. Porsche developed it with exxon mobil and seimans among many other partners. They have used it exclusively in the Porsche supercup series around the world over the past 2 years to test and show it. IT IS ALREADY A REALITY AND ONLY GETTING BIGGER.
More importantly, Porsche and Audi have stiff armed F1 into using synthetic fuel in turbo hybrids with the new engine rules starting in 2026. Same is happening as we speak in other racing series.
Audi bought the Sauber/Alfa F1 team. Porsche was in talks to buy 50% of Red Bull but the deal has fallen thru. Rumors are circulating on a Porsche purchase of Williams, McClaren or Aston Martin as potential targets.
Bottom line is this. Porsche didn't develop synthetic fuel for the supercup series and then stiff arm F1 into adopting it in their turbo hybrid 2026 rules nor develop a hybrid hypercar for wec and imsa because they just want to sell EV cars. They want to sell turbo hybrids that run synthetic fuel.
Most importantly, because F1 has mandated synthetic fuels in 2026, every oil company that partners with an F1 team will be manufacturing it as well. Hint, hint, if all the major oil companies build the facilities to manufacturer it for racing, they can also manufacturer it for gas stations.
Now is the time for everyone to start connecting the dots...
As a side note: this synthetic fuel can be used in any ice powered engine. It is not hydrogen. Do yourself a favor and Google Porsche synthetic fuel. Then google F1 2026 engine regulations. The future of the car industry is always what the racing community is developing and racing. They are developing synthetic fuels and racing turbo hybrids that will be powered by synthetic fuel that works in any ice engine. Hint, hint...
It's based off hydrogen, but processed to turn it into a liquid fuel. I don't know about it providing hyper mileage, but I very much like the fact that the fuel is designed to work in existing cars with no modifications. As much as I'm all for EV, I've been worried about use of vintage cars eventually being affected by this stuff -- which would make me very upset -- but this fuel, like hydrogen, doesn't put out any carbon emissions when burned, so you could drive vintage without issue (or guilt).
It's based off hydrogen, but processed to turn it into a liquid fuel. I don't know about it providing hyper mileage, but I very much like the fact that the fuel is designed to work in existing cars with no modifications. As much as I'm all for EV, I've been worried about use of vintage cars eventually being affected by this stuff -- which would make me very upset -- but this fuel, like hydrogen, doesn't put out any carbon emissions when burned, so you could drive vintage without issue (or guilt).
The fuel doesn't provide the higher mileage. Instead, it provides an environmentally friendly way to run an ICE engine to charge a battery to fuel an electric motor all within a hybrid system.
The fuel mileage advancements come from engineering advancements on each component of the hybrid system. Better ICE efficiency, better energy harvesting, better battery storage, better electric motor efficiency, etc.
Remember, the Porsche 918 hybrid got 100 mpg on antiquated technology that is over 10 years old. 250 mpg is around the corner. And thanks to Porsche, we can burn clean synthetic fuel in any car as well.
Synthetic fuel provides an environmental win win by allowing us to keep the old ICE engines on the road while also fueling the hybrids of the futures.
The fuel doesn't provide the higher mileage. Instead, it provides an environmentally friendly way to run an ICE engine to charge a battery to fuel an electric motor all within a hybrid system.
The fuel mileage advancements come from engineering advancements on each component of the hybrid system. Better ICE efficiency, better energy harvesting, better battery storage, better electric motor efficiency, etc.
Remember, the Porsche 918 hybrid got 100 mpg on antiquated technology that is over 10 years old. 250 mpg is around the corner. And thanks to Porsche, we can burn clean synthetic fuel in any car as well.
Synthetic fuel provides an environmental win win by allowing us to keep the old ICE engines on the road while also fueling the hybrids of the futures.
At the moment oil companies are extremely conservative with their budgets. Making refining changes require huge amounts of capital which in the last ten years or so most refineries have been extremely careful with. President Biden was once again saying that the oil companies need to lower gas prices as they are making more money than god, but he didn’t said crap when Exxon Mobil lost 20 plus billion dollars. Race fuel can be produced in small batches, the big issue will be price. Last time I checked 104 was $13 a gallon, I filled my truck yesterday for $2.19 a gallon. As an idea basically the two big race fuel producers here are VP and Sunoco, the oil majors including Exxon Mobil are not going to go grand scale and invest huge amounts of money in this. You can see the trend of biofuels. biodiesel has been available for many years but the industry have been increasing production at an extremely low rate, case in point Phillips 66 refinery in ferndale California. I spent quite a bit of time in research and development of new products, the technology is out there for a bunch of things but in the end not many companies are going to invest in it until it makes economy sense. This whole green movement is in my opinion a bunch of bologni, many less develop countries will be running ice on the gas we know today for many years to come. In the last five years we are selling a lot more refined products to all different countries. The shipping facilities and storage specially here have been enlarged and there are projects in place to continue to increase storage and shipping capacity. As long as the refineries can operate they’ll continue to produce whatever is the most profitable product with as little investment as possible, investors will continue to judge the companies extremely hard, ie Exxon Mobil was kicked out of the Dow, the stock felt to levels not seen in 50 years, ConocoPhillips went the same way I say 2014, these companies and managers are extremely careful now with capital spending. Yes I’m heavily invested in all the three companies I mentioned here, and off course I follow them real close. I’ll say enjoy the cars and drive them as much and as frequently as you can. I be driving the 99 today.! No cats burning that shell Vpower 93 going triple digits here and there. Best of all yesterday I drove the turbo. The plan has been set and in the future the car will be tuned to have more than 625 hp, more shell v power 93 to be burned.
case in point Phillips 66 refinery in ferndale California. I spent quite a bit of time in research and development
So was the time you spent in research and development in Ferndale California or Ferndale Washington were the plant is actually located ?[/QUOTE]
ok I spent time in R&D new products at Valvoline, anything related to lubricants, new additive technology, nano technology, car detail products, other stuff related to fuel system additives. Lab testing, simulating stuff like rust corrosion resistance, to measuring gloss in waxed, durability ease of application etc. We actually had a lab where we tested competitive products and developed new chemistries. Fleet testing, nyc taxi cabs, police cruisers (the Kentucky state police), Las Vegas taxicabs, numerous heavy duty diesel fleets all over the world, from cr England, to Jmar express (mark Martins fleet), to 77sa in Peru, to cemex (Mexico). A lot of research work engine tear downs evaluating lubricant performance, why all over the world?? Different fuel qualities fuel sulphur content, water content biodiesel quality, operating environment, loads. There are strict requirements about payloads for 18 wheelers that don’t apply to foreign countries so for example a Cummins signature 600 would be pulling 45,000 lbs in the us , 100,000 lbs in Mexico. The ferndale refinery if it’s located in Washington that’s fine, but that’s PSX biggest green diesel protect, they give updates in every analyst call after they report their quarterly results, if you want more info please listen on the next one which I believe is scheduled for November. Why all the testing, one thing is how a product performs in a controlled environment, it’s completely different in the real world. Have a great Sunday and hopefully your football team does well.
First burn of the season. Ian remnants are hanging around for a couple of days and driving nighttime temps into the low 40s.
Jotul F500 -- 24" logs are no problemo
We had a Jotul when we were in Maine and it was a great stove. We also had a Lopi as our central stove. Now we have a Lopi and after over forty years of wood burning we are looking to convert to pellets. The wood gets heavier each year and we were burning 3 cords, most of which my wife stacked and lugged from the woodpile to the stove. So we've had a couple of fires with the pellets and so far, so good.
Yes, we lit up the wood stove also in the great room, but haven't used the other wood stove yet, but I did stack about a little over five cords of seasoned wood in the barn. The spit, spit, d*mn ethanol-based fuels have raised havoc with our 40 ton Honda-powered wood splitter. Early in the spring, we attempted to go for the lungs and purchase a large solar panel system that follows the sun. However, after all the associated costs and all the needed permits ( it just would cost us over a hundred grand ), all the construction would make the return on our investment more vanity than anything else....so we will stick with our propane back-up generator with automatic transfer vs. a storage battery that would only serve power for a day at the most.
Last edited by Formerly996fried; 10-02-2022 at 04:25 PM.
The fuel doesn't provide the higher mileage. Instead, it provides an environmentally friendly way to run an ICE engine to charge a battery to fuel an electric motor all within a hybrid system.
The fuel mileage advancements come from engineering advancements on each component of the hybrid system. Better ICE efficiency, better energy harvesting, better battery storage, better electric motor efficiency, etc.
And thanks to Porsche, we can burn clean synthetic fuel in any car as well.
Synthetic fuel provides an environmental win win by allowing us to keep the old ICE engines on the road while also fueling the hybrids of the futures.
Sorry for late response, I just haven't had time to be on RL. I'm with you on synthetic fuels and am excited about what it means for being able to run vintage and other ICE cars clean.
Originally Posted by GC996
Remember, the Porsche 918 hybrid got 100 mpg on antiquated technology that is over 10 years old. 250 mpg is around the corner.
It seems logical that we got 100mpg on old tech and can get 250mpg on newer tech, but 250 mpg literally is impossible to happen for gas that we use today due to the law of conservation of energy. A gallon of gas contains the equivalent of 33.7kwh of energy. You cannot get more energy out of it than there is in the fuel. The max you can get out of an EV in range will be what 33.7kwh can move for a given car in a perfect environment where the electric motor is 100% efficient, regeneration is 100% efficient, and there are no aerodynamic drag, friction and heat losses. EV's today are pretty close to as good as they are going to get on mileage -- the electric motors now are around 95% efficient. Regenerative braking (the motor being driven in reverse by momentum) is 95% efficient, then loses another 95% driving the car (so it reuses 90.25% of the energy in braking) -- other losses include aerodynamic loss, heat, friction, but the last two are fairly minor. So EV's are already pretty close to as good as they can can get on mileage for the things we can control (motor/generator efficiency, heat losses, there can only be "shades of gray" improvements on aerodynamic losses, friction, etc.). The Tesla model 3 is rated at 138 MPGe in the city and 125 MPGe on the highway. The most we could get to, due to conservation of energy, with advances to have 100% efficient motors, would still bump that mileage only up to about 150 MPGe or so (exact figure depends on weight of the car and the driving scenarios used in the test (e.g. city vs highway).
If we have synthetic fuel that contains more than a gallon of gas's energy content of 33.7kwh, then gas mileage of ICE's could potentially increase, as would MPGe of EV's relevant to that new fuel type as the "gas equivalent" basis (but that's just a math difference of using a different reference gas type).
Also, as far as a majority of people that switched to electric liking them I think it would be really interesting to break that down and see where they live, if they have a second ICE vehicle, prior vehicles, primary reason for switching to electric, etc. Annecdotely, I obviously don't have any real evidence to back this up, I think electric cars are primarily bought by 3 groups of people - those hyper focused on efficiency from a price standpoint, those hyper focused on efficiency from an environmental standpoint (both of these groups were the Prius adopters), and wealthy individuals/techies buying for the novelty/cool factor. I think most EV owners currently intentionally sought them out and as such it would be logical they enjoy/are happy with them, but I think very few people have stumbled into EV ownership and the few I know who have have hated them. So I think once more people start stumbling into EV ownership or they start trying to push EVs on the majority of the population who doesn't want them the satisfaction rate for EVs will drop significantly. From a personal standpoint I think the innovation is kinda cool, but I have no desire to own one, especially at the price point and if I ever did it would just be for the hell of it and certainly wouldn't be my only vehicle.
I've talked to a ton of EV owners over many years and went through the buying process at the Tesla dealer with a new Model Y with a relative who has now owned it for 6 months. I'll just speak to the 3 buyer types you mentioned.
1) Those hyper focused on efficiency from a price standpoint,
2) Those hyper focused on efficiency from an environmental standpoint (both of these groups were the Prius adopters)
3) Wealthy individuals/techies buying for the novelty/cool factor.
I'll discuss in reverse order:
3) Wealthy? -- Yes, or at least comfortable, almost exclusively, which makes sense because used much older (cheaper) EV's are not a really viable due to the insanely high cost of EV battery replacement currently. Used EV's will eventually become viable with advances in tech and resource availability, but for now the used market isn't viable. Most Tesla buyers I spoke to are coming from long histories of leasing or buying Mercedes/Audi/BMW/Lexus new every several years. None of them I know are doing it for the "cool" factor, all of them are from word of mouth from friends saying it is a far better ownership experience.
2) Hyperfocused on environmental -- This, very surprisingly, is not even the majority case in my experience. I spoke to a lot of Tesla owners in AZ when vacationing there -- they absolutely love their Teslas -- will talk about them all day -- but if you bring up the "green" topic, they have not bought into that argument and do not want to talk about it (it literally becomes an uncomfortable discussion very quickly). A guy who used to own a restaurant in NJ always had an EV's in his parking spot from the earliest days of EV's -- probably about 10 year ago I asked him why he had all the EV's and he said he was a voluntary evaluator for several different brands. He said people think he's a tree "hugger", but then said he doesn't care anything about that, he just was into it because he wanted oil independence -- then he pointed to his vanity license plate and it read "F OPEC" . He said most people don't get it, which was surprising to me, since it's not subtle IMO . My neighbor has Hyundai EV replacing and Hyundai ICE -- he does care about the environment, but many EV owners not only didn't buy it for environmental reasons, but don't believe in the environment savings.
3) Focused on efficiency from a price standpoint -- yes, because the fuel costs and maintenance costs are dramatically lower. My relative with the Model Y says she doesn't even notice the increase in her electric bill with charging (it obviously has gone up, but far less than you would think -- about $10 electricity takes you 300 miles). The number one thing everyone says they love the most is never going to the gas stations -- I hear that far more than savings or environment. My relative has owned the Tesla for 6 months and only had to charge externally once on a trip to another state. Not having to go to the gas station is universally what people have told me they love -- that's why people who say that the limited range of EV's is a hassle are usually not talking from real world experience. Except for those who drive very long trips regularly, refueling and EV is far easier and more convenient (and cheaper!) than an ICE.
I've talked to a ton of EV owners over many years and went through the buying process at the Tesla dealer with a new Model Y with a relative who has now owned it for 6 months. I'll just speak to the 3 buyer types you mentioned.
1) Those hyper focused on efficiency from a price standpoint,
2) Those hyper focused on efficiency from an environmental standpoint (both of these groups were the Prius adopters)
3) Wealthy individuals/techies buying for the novelty/cool factor.
I'll discuss in reverse order:
3) Wealthy? -- Yes, or at least comfortable, almost exclusively, which makes sense because used much older (cheaper) EV's are not a really viable due to the insanely high cost of EV battery replacement currently. Used EV's will eventually become viable with advances in tech and resource availability, but for now the used market isn't viable. Most Tesla buyers I spoke to are coming from long histories of leasing or buying Mercedes/Audi/BMW/Lexus new every several years. None of them I know are doing it for the "cool" factor, all of them are from word of mouth from friends saying it is a far better ownership experience.
2) Hyperfocused on environmental -- This, very surprisingly, is not even the majority case in my experience. I spoke to a lot of Tesla owners in AZ when vacationing there -- they absolutely love their Teslas -- will talk about them all day -- but if you bring up the "green" topic, they have not bought into that argument and do not want to talk about it (it literally becomes an uncomfortable discussion very quickly). A guy who used to own a restaurant in NJ always had an EV's in his parking spot from the earliest days of EV's -- probably about 10 year ago I asked him why he had all the EV's and he said he was a voluntary evaluator for several different brands. He said people think he's a tree "hugger", but then said he doesn't care anything about that, he just was into it because he wanted oil independence -- then he pointed to his vanity license plate and it read "F OPEC" . He said most people don't get it, which was surprising to me, since it's not subtle IMO . My neighbor has Hyundai EV replacing and Hyundai ICE -- he does care about the environment, but many EV owners not only didn't buy it for environmental reasons, but don't believe in the environment savings.
3) Focused on efficiency from a price standpoint -- yes, because the fuel costs and maintenance costs are dramatically lower. My relative with the Model Y says she doesn't even notice the increase in her electric bill with charging (it obviously has gone up, but far less than you would think -- about $10 electricity takes you 300 miles). The number one thing everyone says they love the most is never going to the gas stations -- I hear that far more than savings or environment. My relative has owned the Tesla for 6 months and only had to charge externally once on a trip to another state. Not having to go to the gas station is universally what people have told me they love -- that's why people who say that the limited range of EV's is a hassle are usually not talking from real world experience. Except for those who drive very long trips regularly, refueling and EV is far easier and more convenient (and cheaper!) than an ICE.
You are right, comfortable is probably a more accurate financial description than wealthy. I have also noticed that shift from Luxury owners/leasers too. I find it surprising you haven't met many Tesla owners who bought it for the "cool" factor, though. I feel like at least half of the Model S owners I have met since the 3 became widely available bought it almost exclusively for the Ludacris or self-driving mode. I even met a guy in his early 20s that made money off bitcoin that not so jokingly said he chose to buy a Tesla solely based on the fart and dance modes. I would certainly hope this one is the exception and not the rule though...
I will say that most of the environmentalist EV owners I have met were on the West Coast, I didn't really meet any when I lived in the North East, and the Leaf, sometimes Model 3, seemed to be their choice. You are right though, this is definitely not the majority despite the stereotype. That must have been a fun conversation with the OPEC guy. I always like getting to meet interesting people.
I will have to ask EV owners I meet from now on about the gas station thing. I have known lots including two of my uncles, one of my cousins several neighbors, and a couple friends and they have all lauded over the fuel savings, quietness, and acceleration, but I have never heard one of them expressly mention not having to go to gas stations as a benefit.
Sorry for late response, I just haven't had time to be on RL. I'm with you on synthetic fuels and am excited about what it means for being able to run vintage and other ICE cars clean.
It seems logical that we got 100mpg on old tech and can get 250mpg on newer tech, but 250 mpg literally is impossible to happen for gas that we use today due to the law of conservation of energy. A gallon of gas contains the equivalent of 33.7kwh of energy. You cannot get more energy out of it than there is in the fuel. The max you can get out of an EV in range will be what 33.7kwh can move for a given car in a perfect environment where the electric motor is 100% efficient, regeneration is 100% efficient, and there are no aerodynamic drag, friction and heat losses. EV's today are pretty close to as good as they are going to get on mileage -- the electric motors now are around 95% efficient. Regenerative braking (the motor being driven in reverse by momentum) is 95% efficient, then loses another 95% driving the car (so it reuses 90.25% of the energy in braking) -- other losses include aerodynamic loss, heat, friction, but the last two are fairly minor. So EV's are already pretty close to as good as they can can get on mileage for the things we can control (motor/generator efficiency, heat losses, there can only be "shades of gray" improvements on aerodynamic losses, friction, etc.). The Tesla model 3 is rated at 138 MPGe in the city and 125 MPGe on the highway. The most we could get to, due to conservation of energy, with advances to have 100% efficient motors, would still bump that mileage only up to about 150 MPGe or so (exact figure depends on weight of the car and the driving scenarios used in the test (e.g. city vs highway).
If we have synthetic fuel that contains more than a gallon of gas's energy content of 33.7kwh, then gas mileage of ICE's could potentially increase, as would MPGe of EV's relevant to that new fuel type as the "gas equivalent" basis (but that's just a math difference of using a different reference gas type).
Pete, sorry about the delay in circling back. Been a busy week.
Transporatation will be on an interesting journey as the government policy makers, auto manufacturers, energy companies, consumers and businesses work through what can be realistically done and not done over time frames. The Russian Ukrainian war has jump started the conversation one many fronts.
Two things are certain right know.
(1) the majority of the world is not ready from an infrastructural nor economic standpoint for 100% EV powered cars so we have to power it with some form of fuel that is petrol based, synthetic or a combination.
(2) the energy industry isnt ready for it either.
So in the meantime, the scientists keep looking for new ways to do something, and we evolve.
But contrary to popular believe, ICE aren't going away anytime soon.
09-29-2022, 11:00 PM
. He said most people don't get it, which was surprising to me, since it's not subtle IMO 
