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I would very much welcome pictures of the critical components if the oil filter + bypass on this engine can be confirmed good. I second Optionman1's motion to settle this with empirical evidence from this engine. Pics of the state of the oil filter and bypass valve (and spring) are critical in this matter, let's hope OP is willing to provide.
Pictures of the filter were already posted, here they are again:
Regardless, since the outer race of the IMSB fused with the IMS, the engine has to come apart. I need to figure out if the original IMS can be machined, or if I need a new IMS.
I've had a couple counter-balance shafts done at a custom cam grinders in the past,
unfortunately my guy retired and is somewhere on his sailboat.. May pay to check around in that
industry.. The IMS shaft isnt made of anything that exotic.
How do you propose I take pictures of the bypass valve and spring?
Regardless, since the outer race of the IMSB fused with the IMS, the engine has to come apart. I need to figure out if the original IMS can be machined, or if I need a new IMS.
The bypass assembly should relatively easily pop out the bottom of the canister, if you manage to grab on with a pair of long-nosed tweezers.
Unfortunately, if you cannot get the race out it indeed looks like you need an entire IMS replacement, which indeed means rebuild time.
This is just categorically false. Oil does not flow upstream. It just doesn't. Re-study those diagrams. In principle, all oil that reaches these vital components (crankshaft, pistons, journal bearings) passes the oil filter first. All of it. The only way for debris to make it to the critical components you mention, is when the oil filter or oil filter bypass failed, or when you start the engine in subzero conditions. Sump oil being contaminated does not mean these contaminants made it into the pressurized oil tract.
Stop spreading this misinformation.
I would very much welcome pictures of the critical components if the oil filter + bypass on this engine can be confirmed good. I second Optionman1's motion to settle this with empirical evidence from this engine. Pics of the state of the oil filter and bypass valve (and spring) are critical in this matter, let's hope OP is willing to provide.
The chains act like conveyor belts, moving oil (and any debris) out to the head. That is why after an IMS bearing failure, it's common to see damage in the scavenge pump from that debris. And while the oil goes to the filter first (and why we came up with the spin on filter adapter with no bypass), the oil pump too sees any debris. You'd be amazed what can make it through the oil pickup screen. I'd have to find the picture, but one shop lost a chunk of the dual row internal wire lock and it made its way into the sump and up the oil pickup, causing severe damage to the oil pump.
Pictures of the filter were already posted, here they are again:
How do you propose I take pictures of the bypass valve and spring?
Regardless, since the outer race of the IMSB fused with the IMS, the engine has to come apart. I need to figure out if the original IMS can be machined, or if I need a new IMS.
Teardown is the only option for replacement. That shaft will have to be replaced as typically the point of no return is when the circlip is no longer intact and clearly visible. Once it's that far gone, the sprocket ends up walking on the IMS tube and will have excess runout.
The chains act like conveyor belts, moving oil (and any debris) out to the head. That is why after an IMS bearing failure, it's common to see damage in the scavenge pump from that debris. And while the oil goes to the filter first (and why we came up with the spin on filter adapter with no bypass), the oil pump too sees any debris. You'd be amazed what can make it through the oil pickup screen. I'd have to find the picture, but one shop lost a chunk of the dual row internal wire lock and it made its way into the sump and up the oil pickup, causing severe damage to the oil pump.
Sure, some splash can be transfered to the head sprockets. Does that mean it makes it to the lifters, camshafts? No. Or to any bearing surfaces? Also no. This contaminated oil is washed out by the fresh continuous stream of oil from the pressurized feed to the camshafts and lifters. The contaminated oil will not flow upstream. Please let me know if you want to contest that point.
I feel that whenever this point is made, one remains intentionally vague on where the contaminated oil >actually< ends up.
If you want to be truly meticulous in case of recoverable IMSB failure, the heads can also be cleaned without rebuild by simply removing the cam covers. IMO it's not necessary.
The oil pump(s) can be serviced without complete rebuild too, no biggie.
How about this...if your IMSB hand grenades and you don't think all that metal flake got throughout your engine; just change the bearing and report back every year how the engine is doing. If you have the same situation as above and you think all that metal flake did go through your engine; tear it down completely, clean it up, reassemble and report back yearly how the engine is doing. It will be a grand scientific experiment...
Sure, some splash can be transfered to the head sprockets. Does that mean it makes it to the lifters, camshafts? No. Or to any bearing surfaces? Also no. This contaminated oil is washed out by the fresh continuous stream of oil from the pressurized feed to the camshafts and lifters. The contaminated oil will not flow upstream. Please let me know if you want to contest that point.
I feel that whenever this point is made, one remains intentionally vague on where the contaminated oil >actually< ends up.
If you want to be truly meticulous in case of recoverable IMSB failure, the heads can also be cleaned without rebuild by simply removing the cam covers. IMO it's not necessary.
The oil pump(s) can be serviced without complete rebuild too, no biggie.
If there is debris in the engine from a failure, and the stock filter arrangement is used, it will bypass and contaminate the engine.
Oil moves/sloshes inside the engine - it's more than splash from the chains up towards the heads.
Debris can and does get circulated around the engine. If that wasn't the case, how did this happen:
You can never say never. There are no absolutes with any mechanical systems.
I'm 100% against patching up any engine that has had some sort of failure that has generated foreign object debris. I'm not saying that you can't sometimes save an engine, but you have to weigh the costs and risks involved. From my standpoint, I don't want any of my products installed in an engine that has had a failure. If my product fails after it's been fitted, I'm the first person that is being called when the blame (and responsibility) lies with the installer.
If there is debris in the engine from a failure, and the stock filter arrangement is used, it will bypass and contaminate the engine.
Oil moves/sloshes inside the engine - it's more than splash from the chains up towards the heads.
Debris can and does get circulated around the engine. If that wasn't the case, how did this happen:
You can never say never. There are no absolutes with any mechanical systems.
I'm 100% against patching up any engine that has had some sort of failure that has generated foreign object debris. I'm not saying that you can't sometimes save an engine, but you have to weigh the costs and risks involved. From my standpoint, I don't want any of my products installed in an engine that has had a failure. If my product fails after it's been fitted, I'm the first person that is being called when the blame (and responsibility) lies with the installer.
You mean that bolt didn't just splash up into the chain/sprocket? Your experience and even handed responses are much appreciated here
If there is debris in the engine from a failure, and the stock filter arrangement is used, it will bypass and contaminate the engine.
I'm sorry for calling it what it is, Charles, but this quote is just bull****. The stock filter arrangement is full-flow. The bypass valve is a safety measure that only operates with a fully clogged filter or subzero temperature engine starts. Let me know if you want to contest that statement, and if you do, please specify when and how a nominal stock setup (so non-defective) setup 'will' bypass. You present it as an inevitability while it is a highly situational low-probability event.
Also, you need to be more careful with how you present things. When you say "contaminated oil will slosh and circulate", that last part will get taken out of context and before you know some certain enthusiasts on this forum will be screaming that the stock filter setup does nothing and contaminated oil is fed to your crank bearings unfiltered.
Let's get you to say it on the record instead of this circumstantial 'evidence', because all this beating around the bush has to stop:
Do you believe contaminated oil flows upstream towards any of the mentioned critical engine parts (bearing surfaces, pressurized lifters, cylinder liners), yes or no?
I know you have corporate interest in your products not ending up in previously failed engines, and that is your good right. However, that does not mean you can just make statements that defy the laws of physics and present them as if they're facts.
I also know you have your spin-on adapter to sell, but I have made this point before; the stock canister does not let contaminated oil bypass except under exceptional conditions. Show me an engine that had IMSB failure with a good working filter + canister, that exhibited debris-sanded bearing surfaces.
Originally Posted by Charles Navarro
I don't want any of my products installed in an engine that has had a failure.
Thanks for confirming this. I mentioned that before (somewhere in this thread, I believe) and I was declared insane for even suggesting that.
I'm sorry for calling it what it is, Charles, but this quote is just bull****. The stock filter arrangement is full-flow. The bypass valve is a safety measure that only operates with a fully clogged filter or subzero temperature engine starts. Let me know if you want to contest that statement, and if you do, please specify when and how a nominal stock setup (so non-defective) setup 'will' bypass. You present it as an inevitability while it is a highly situational low-probability event.
Also, you need to be more careful with how you present things. When you say "contaminated oil will slosh and circulate", that last part will get taken out of context and before you know some certain enthusiasts on this forum will be screaming that the stock filter setup does nothing and contaminated oil is fed to your crank bearings unfiltered.
Let's get you to say it on the record instead of this circumstantial 'evidence', because all this beating around the bush has to stop:
Do you believe contaminated oil flows upstream towards any of the mentioned critical engine parts (bearing surfaces, pressurized lifters, cylinder liners), yes or no?
I know you have corporate interest in your products not ending up in previously failed engines, and that is your good right. However, that does not mean you can just make statements that defy the laws of physics and present them as if they're facts.
I also know you have your spin-on adapter to sell, but I have made this point before; the stock canister does not let contaminated oil bypass except under exceptional conditions. Show me an engine that had IMSB failure with a good working filter + canister, that exhibited debris-sanded bearing surfaces.
Thanks for confirming this. I mentioned that before (somewhere in this thread, I believe) and I was declared insane for even suggesting that.
I know what I have seen and has been confirmed by the hundreds of technicians we have trained over the years and validated by the shops we work with. I understand how the bypass is supposed to work, but it still doesn't change the fact that every engine that has had an ims bearing failure we've seen has glitter in the oil inlet into the engine that should be receiving clean, filtered oil. So I cannot honestly say that the filter will keep this debris from being ingested by the engine.
The bypass works on differential pressures - if there is a large enough difference in pressure across the filter, like at start up, the bypass can open and does, even if for an infinitesimal amount of time.
We use a filter with a bypass for IMS Solution and 9A1 applications with our spin on filter adapter, but the bypass isn't located at the bottom of the filter for this reason. It is up at the top by the anti-drain back valve.
If anyone thinks an oil filter of any kind is going to stop all debris from circulating through an engine that is failing due to mechanical debris, you are a damn idiot.
Oil laden with lightweight debris is largely responsible for the items with wear within these engines. This is especially true with the items that live solely from boundary layer protection for the protective oil film.
Windage within these engines is a big problem, and this is why we see so many engines die from oil aeration. It's why the factory played around with profiling the bottom side of the cylinders in some engines, then went away from that, among other things.
Timing chains are great conveyor belts to deliver debris, and debris laden oil from the root of the engine, out to each cylinder head. This debris is often sucked into the secondary oil scavenge pumps, causes them to seize, creating a scenario where their exhaust cam sprocket drive drive tangs fail. This results in the exhaust valve timing being retarded, crashing valves into pistons. Yes, I just documented another one of these failures this week, with a factory (new) engine with 20K miles on the clock since replacement.
People can sit here all day long and argue about the things they have read, and the pictures they have seen, and how that gets processed through their brain housing group. Until they have first- hand experience with this engine internally, they don't have anything.
I wonder how many people that sit here, and argue could assemble one of these engines on their own, and have it fire up without any issues, and not leak oil like the Exxon Valdez? I'd like to see. They are due physics, when they can't even hold a 10mm wrench properly. That said, I'm talking about the who are constantly questioning everything, and opposing the facts that we see everyday. Lots of forum members have built these engines, and have done a damn good job- ironically they are not the ones that spend their time arguing. Soon more people will be able to build these engines at home through my step- by- step video assembly video series. It looks like 12+ hours of edited content coming to you before the end of 2019!
Words are cheap. Anyone can be a "Googlespert", or "Wikigenius".
Last edited by Flat6 Innovations; 08-31-2019 at 02:01 PM.
How about this...if your IMSB hand grenades and you don't think all that metal flake got throughout your engine; just change the bearing and report back every year how the engine is doing. If you have the same situation as above and you think all that metal flake did go through your engine; tear it down completely, clean it up, reassemble and report back yearly how the engine is doing. It will be a grand scientific experiment...
Hello? Can you hear me now? Anybody? Yeah, I didn't think so. Words are cheap...
08-30-2019, 11:39 PM
Your experience and even handed responses are much appreciated here 
