Kevin

TB, can you enlighten me about your passion for " fuzzy logic boost controllers "

TB993tt

I was predicting that those elite tuners who could control the turbo vanes and the boost via the ECU will be able to produce engines with much better torque curves and the guys who can only wind up to a set boost using an auxilliary controller and not have the ability to control those vanes will be at a serious disadvantage compared to the current turbos

taly911

Thank you
Yes, I spent the last three years in the US and brought the car with me from Israel, naw I'm back in Israel.
The engine is stock, came from 993 turbo S, Kevins stage 2 turbos no cats no mufflers, the MoTec M8 was tuned by Geoffrey.
the car weight is stock.
I would love to post the data log but I don't know how, the only way I know of is to open it with the MoTec software, I can send you the file.
Tal

TB993tt

taly
I really like your car - one of the best looking 965s I've ever seen and with the driveline it is unique.
I do have a problem with these power figures 'tho as you might have read. If you have 540hp @ 0.7 bar then how much do you think are you making at 0.9 bar ? 560hp ? 570hp ?
Your 100 to 200kph time is very quick.Are you running 5 or 6 speed box ? Are you sure your 965 is stock weight ? are those BBS mags ? GT3 seats ? no exhaust, lighter rear spoiler ?- I know I had my 965 down to 1420kg with not much effort.
Something doesn't stack here for me since I have never heard of a 993tt going over 500hp with stock cams.
500 real hp with 1400kg weight would give you 363hp/ton which I reckon would make those numbers with a 5 speed box.

taly911

Hi
I timed it again today, 6.8 sec MoTec log, shifted twice it's a 5 speed box,
As for the weight the car is stock , C4 AWD wide body with TT engine should weight over 1500Kg, less seats, front GT3s no rears, BBs mags, rear spoiler, no exhaust , I don't know the exact weight my guess is more like 1500Kg then 1400Kg.
Tal

Kevin

Tal, could you mount a video camera and get a recorded run.. I'll get someone to host the file...

taly911

The MoTec data log is much more accurate, must be a way to post it, Geoffrey can you help me with this one?
Thank you Tal

Geoffrey

Tal, send me your log and I'll post it. My only wish for your car was that we had more time to tune it and it had Carillo rods so I felt comfortable pushing it past 550 or so. I'm glad everything is going well for you over there, thanks for sharing.

TB, just because your tuner can't make it happen, doesn't mean that others can't either. I'm not the only one with success with the 993tt engine. I firmly believe the Motronic ECU is capable of controlling the engine, however, I'm also quite certian that back hacking the code limits the tuner's access to all of the tables and parameters. Take the wastegate control for instance. The output of the ECU is simply a Pulse Width Modulated (PWM) channel triggering on the ground (0v) circuit. The ECU applies a duty cycle to the valve which allows a variable amount of manifold pressure to the wastegate actuators. It's simple, and I use the factory 993tt valve with the MoTeC. The issues come with controlling the settings the ECU uses to recognize when the boost pressure is over or under the target, and how fast and how much it changes the PWM output duty cycle to open or close the wastegate actuators. My guess is that the tuners that are using aftermarket boost controllers are the ones who cannot program the Motronic boost circuit.

Geoffrey

Here is a dyno graph from a 2WD 993RSR with a 993tt engine. The initial run was configured with FVD Motronics optimized for 3.8l K24, FVD intercooler, no cats, no muffler. The K24s could not maintain boost. The second run is Haltech optimized for the same engine except for k16 Stage 6 at 1bar of boost. One clarification about the turbos, they were produced by another turbo charger company that used Kevin's drawings to make the turbos. The turbos were manufactured poorly since the compressor housings were machined BY HAND on a LATHE, not on a CNC machine using Kevin's proprietary design and manufacturing process. They had almost 1/16" of clearance between the compressor blade and the compressor housing compared to .012" for Kevin's or .001" for his zero clearance design. This affects the compressor efficiency. Again, this is from a Dynapack Dyno that measures REAR WHEEL HORSEPOWER!

TB993tt

taly
please weigh your car. the seats alone are worth what ? 25kg ? the exhaust system 20kg ? the wheels 10kg ? - these are significant numbers for acceleration, and the 5 speed box with 2 shifts, is why the 533PS RS car does 100-200kph in 6.6 secs weighing~ 1500kg
I look forward to seeing your name in the credits for the winning Porsche teams in Europe or the US next season

Geoffrey

As you requested, here is the MoTeC datalog from Tal's run. What you are seeing is the top graph is RPM, second is lambda, third is TPS, and bottom is manifold pressure. The time stamp is across the bottom. Tal has said that 100kph is 6000 in second gear (Time stamp 853.1), and 200kph is 6100 in fourth gear (Time stamp 860.0) MoTeC is logging every .1 second so 5931 ocurrs at 853.1 and 6105 occurs at 860.0.

Konstantin

Hello
I do not know how people can say such unqualified comments?
I know RUF personaly. We ate togheter in the last PCA germany region X mass night (The PCA Geramyn region no longer exist thanks to some great guys in the USA who managed to close a club with 35 years tradition :-( ) anyway. I know RUFS manager who build the CTR I know his ex chief mechanic who was also a mechanic and also a raxce driver in the Porsche Supercup for years etc etc.
How can you say I do not like RUF?
I just give you the numbers as they are postet and testet in the german magazines. Ah!! before I forget when the CTR 2 came out I aksed his manager what he thinks will it be faster than the CTR?
he said no way! He explained also the reasons but I can not post all of them here. Just take a look on the ower weight ratio and that the CTR2 use CAt converters and you will see why.

Rs Tunning.
before someone represent him self as a big Tuner he must know that RS Tuning is teh guy who worked for RUF and make all his previus great engines when RUF had a real big name and was one of the best (probably the best)
He knows his stuff and the fastest 996 Turbo racing engine today in the world making the fastest lap ever at Nürburgring is made by him. Have you ever watched the VIDEo at a lap around 6,51 sec!!! at Nurburgring??????
so dont talk about think you don't know

RUF is making 520 real HP in his CTR2 so all other tuners.
I can make you this HP with 10000 EUR within 2 days.
if you want to make reliable 650 HP (which is the limit today) you need much more work and not many do that.

There is a reason why not all of the tuners go to the Tunner grand prix.. It is easy to know why. You need more than power to win there.

Hats off to the Nissan skyline which race for years at the 24 H at Nurburgring.
tuners make easily over 1000 HP
at the Ring they race with 550 because more is not reliably and get cooling problems. This si raced by the Nissan factory Team not by a Tuner .
Power is easy to made especially with a Turbo car but relible power is not that easy!!! The Nissan never got better than 5th place even with AWD and even with at least 20 hours of rain. It was even behind the Gt3 RS car with much less hp etc etc.

The cuting edge NA engine is the Koro 4.6 L engine made at Kadach racing. It has the abosulte fastest lap held from Manthay racing Turbo before.
MR Turbo makes 5.5 sec from 60 to 125.

I see that the Motec system is not right configurated. wrong AF Ratio skall. WOT shows not 100% etc tec.
if you make the run with wrong calibrated sensors then you get wrong results.
I work with this system at Porsche supercup and I tell you you can get every reading you want if the senso is wrong calibrated.
sent me teh real file with the calibration setting etc and I will see if everything is ok.
0.9 bar is to low. maybe you have more than that thats why the goos time or do you have very big Turbos.
enough said and probably I wrote to complictaed and about many diferent topics at one time.
take you time while reading this message

Konstantin

Jean

Geoffrey,

Thanks a lot, this is a great chart. Is Tal's gearobx a 3.6T gearbox with 5 speed?

If so, at 6,000 RPMs in 2nd. gear and stock tire sizes he will be at a speed of 119 kph, the 100 kph (62mph) will be reached at 5,000 RPMs.

Geoffrey

Tal's car has a 964 C4 5spd trans and is an AWD car.

Konstantin, since you work with MoTeC and Porsches, you also know that the accelerator linkage is not all that precise. The TPS Hi and Low values were set during the dyno session. 8 months later they are reading 99.x % instead of 100% hardly qualifies as set up incorrectly. I had the MoTeC interpret software set up for AFR scale rather than Lambda since that was what I worked with last. For the purpose of showing RPM, I didn't feel it necessary to rescale that particular graph. So yes, the scale on that graph could be changed, but that does not mean the calibration file is set up incorrectly, and since you don't have it, you really can't comment as to whether or not it is proper for this engine. Additionally, the sensors HAVE NOT been set up incorrectly, as you should know, the Interpret software is separate from the M8 calibration software and allows you to display in any unit you feel necessary and to scale the graphs to see the data. IF you look to the right, you'll see the two wide band LSM-11 sensors are reading .83 lambda which would be proper for WOT at .9bar on a Porsche turbo engine. Furthermore, if you did have the calibration file, you'd be able to see the effeciency and load sites are based of of the MAP sensor / Baro sensor and not from TPS. So the only thing MoTeC uses TPS for is the rate of change for acceleration enrichment calculations. The fact that it shows 99.2 rather than 100 is meaningless for engine control functions.

LAT

Konstantin,
no problem, I obviously misunderstood your intentions, consider this a retraction of my earlier posting.

Cheers