LAT

Konstantin,
no problem, I obviously misunderstood your intentions, consider this a retraction of my earlier posting regarding Ruf.

Cheers

Konstantin

@ LAT
No problem :-)

Konstantin

Konstantin

to be clear. i do not say the sensors are false calibrated. I say it MAY be wrong
I think Geoffrey did a good job since he had to corect all teh mistakes from the previus tuner and even if the car needs 7,8 instead of 6.8 sec is still very fast.
A very well tuned 996 Turbo (it doesnt matter who build it) with 520 HP needs ca 8 sec for the same test.

PS It seems to me that the RPM seonsor is wrong.
The mark is at 5960?? but the reading on the wondow says 6216 rpm and 125,4 km/h.
That will make sense since Jean said the 100 should be at about 5000 rpm and I calculate 4960 rpm.
so either the sensor is wrong calibrated or they messured the time from 125,4 to 200 km/h (instead the 100 to 200 km/h)

that's why the very good time. This is the time a Gt1 with 544 HP but much less weight would makes..
you need more HP or less weight or both to make this time.
anyway it seems to be very fast even if it is from 125-200 km/h

Konstantin

Geoffrey

The way the MoTeC Intrepret software works is that it shows the values where the cursor is at in the log file. Since it was logged every .1 seconds, each right arrow key moves the cursor .1 seconds in the log. I had to manually go in and find where the RPM in second gear was closest to 6000 and closest to 6100 in fourth. These numbers correspond to 5931@853.1 and 6105@860.0. When the screen capture was taken, the cursor was at time stamp 853.2 which now shows 62xx rpm and has no bearing on the calculation, only where the cursor was when the screen capture was taken. Time stamp 860-853.1 = 6.9 seconds which is what Tal said his run was at. Additionally, since I shrunk the screen capture down, the dashed marks look like they are in the wrong place. The RPM sensor is the factory 60-2 Motronic magnetic sensor which is correct and correctly logged.

My comment was not about TB's tuner RS Tuning as I have no knowdledge of them other than the Uwe Alzen video and lengthly reputation in Europe. Rather was about TB's perception that if RS can't do it, no one can...

taly911

Hi Jean
The gearbox is stock C4 G64/00, the rear wheels are 265/35 18".
BTW I've droped the ride.
Tal

Kevin

Tal, thanks for providing the Motec data logging... It's nice to see what a good set of Stage 2 turbo's can produce at .9bars.. Thanks for the effort.. It's hard to dispute the time stamp with the engine RPM.. I'll take the 6.9 seconds..

Jean

Tal, Thanks for the information provided...and glad you dropped the car a bit

Also, thanks Geoffrey and Konstantin for that orgy of mumbo jumbo for us mortals .

I guess the summary of all this is the following:

-If Taly's car is stock weight, it has some VERY serious hp and torque
-Taly's car does not seem to have stock weight, as TB pointed out, these are the things we see from the picture, but it still has some very serious hp to take it to those numbers.
-Taly's car has a C4 gearbox and not 3.6T, which means that the mph used for the data logging seems correct, if it was a 3.6 T gearbox, things would be much easier to assimilate
-If Taly's car is stock weight, has a C4 gearbox, was running at 0.9 bar boost and has those acceleration numbers, it does have that kind of hp that Geoffrey mentioned
- Kevin's turbos will not get their full potential with Motronic.
-If you can get that kind of hp only with a Motec, Stage 2 Kevin's turbos and a stock TT engine, no cams, no 1.2 bar boost,no twin plug, no 3.8, stock I/C etc... everyone else is throwing their money out of the window.

I feel dumb now, having spent as much money as I did to get what I wanted.

Bill S.

60 to 130 MPH is a bit easier to measure in the US, and allows us to compare to US magazines.

I measured the 62 to 125 MPH time (100 to 200 kmh) of the Ruf Turbo R at 7.8 seconds. The 60 to 130 MPH was 8.7 seconds.

Geoffrey

Jean,

Part of the acceleration factor is the "Area under the curve" that Kevin's turbos provide over other turbos. This is why I like them so much. They provide for much better drivability and throttle response particularly between 2500 and 4000rpm. Anyone that likes Ruf cars would appreciate what these turbos bring.

TB993tt

For those of us on the planet earth, please refer to the "stage 3s do they work" thread to see how the maker of "the fastest race 996tt" got 471PS and predicted a maximum 510PS from stage 3 turbos. Geoffrey seems to think he can defy the laws of physics and get 540hp @ 0.7 bar and who knows what at 0.9 bar from a stock 993tt engine with STAGE 2 turbos with no exhaust and Motec only. IMO This is an embarrasment to the Rennlist 993 turbo Technical Forum and belongs somewhere else, maybe 6 speed
Taly, you need measure your 100-200kph accurately with an accelerometer or stopwatch 'cos 6.8secs is dreamworld (read some tests - the Freisinger 600hp 993GT2 @ 1300kg took 6.6 secs with a US$20K Secan intercoooler and a near full spec EVO race motor ) unless your car is SERIOUSLY light and as I've said before those of us who are spending serious $$ in the pursuit of real power are having the p155 taken out of them.

pole position

TB993tt

My sentiments exactly. I consider F1 the highest form of motorsport and I cannot understand when factory teams like Toyota and Honda ( until last season) spend 400mil plus a season and barely beat the Minardi's at the back of the grid or blow up in spectacular fashion are not hiring those aftermarket guys with their exorbitant power outputs ?
Do those guys rather stay in there own shop than to get glory and $$$$$$$$$$$$ in F1 ?

It is my firm believe that there are many talented tuners out there , but I wish those hp claims would not be so much blown out of proportion.

Kevin

Folks, all of us have to as a community, set some sort of standard for testing our cars.. We can banter each other and provoke each other till hell freezes over.. But in the end, we have to respect that all of us have a common goal, common interest. Bill's idea is spectacular, and now we need to step it up and hone it for all of us.. The Audi boys can use there Vag-com to data log there cars to compare one car to the next.. I guess as grown men we can all pull it together for a common method.. The weight in comparing a dyno sheet has merit if on shows back to back runs, mod vs mod. Comparing one engine to another vs one dyno to another, we just won't get any harmony out of it.. Rolling starts with a video camera from 10mph to 6 gear focused on the tach and speedo should be the standard... Whatever the standard is, we all need to find it..

Geoffrey

I guess I'm not understanding what physics I'm defying? If I'm such a liar, then it should be easy for anyone to point out my technical errors. There are many bright technical people here and I'm willing to be wrong, I'm willing to be corrected, I'm willing to learn, however, the fact remains that no has really posted data, real or otherwise. Look at the dates, the data was never created to be shared in this form, it was only data used for tuning.

1) Do you think that the 3 brands of dynos that I use are setup incorrectly and showing bad results?

2) Do you think I'm lying? What is there for me to gain?

3) Do you think that I don't understand turbocharging technology as it relates to the 993?

There have been plenty of high hp 930 engines built over the years, why wouldn't a larger capacity, better cammed, better intake and exhaust manifold, better cylinder head flow, higher compression, better turboed 993tt engine produce more power? 541hp for a single turbo 3.3 engine is pathetic! Ask Todd Knighton from Protomotive, he'll tell you the same thing. What about the 950hp 3.3 turbo engine from Europe? The technology is there, available for those who can properly manage it. It is all about a) desigining the engine for EFI, and b) programming the EFI properly. Aftermarket engine management systems allow for the ultimate flexibility. Motronic has limitations to the extent that the tuner can understand the coded programming and alter it appropriately.

Check out "GM High Tech Performance" from October 2004. My car and the EFI class I teach is in the magazine. (400rwhp@.5bar of boost)
Check out "Engine Masters" Fall 2004 (volume 7, no 2) I'm published there too with my car and the EFI class.

I'm sorry you feel that I've embarrassed the Rennlist Technical forum and that I belong on 6 speed online however, the only thing that has been said is that I must be wrong because "so and so" said it can't be done. I've physically done 50+ 911 Turbo engines over the past 2 years and can say that I have experienced it.

Thanks, I've appreciated Rennlist and its community and I absolutely love 911 Turbo engines.

taly911

TB
The MoTec log is more accurate then any other method you mentioned, my MoTec is well calibrated we tasted it with all relevant external sensors.
I measure all my runs with a stopwatch just to make sure I get similar figures.
Believe it or not (probably you don't) those figures are real.
I wise my car was seriously light I don’t believe this is the case but I'll weight it next week and let you know.
I don't work for Geoffrey, I decided to post this because I wanted to share my experience with all of you , I spent huge money on lousy MoTec tuners who almost destroyed my engine before I met him.
Tal

Jean

Geoffrey

We (at least I) are not saying that achieveng that kind of top hp is not possible, because I know you can, for how long, not much, actually very little.

What I am questioning is that much hp at 0.7 Bar from a stock engine.
You mention Protomotive, Todd was able to get 520hp at 0.7 Bar with a hugely modified engine, displacement, aggressive cams, heads, big turbos, very special intake, special exhaust, huge intercooler etc.. One of his engines reached (a claimed) 900 hp+ but at boost levels of 2+ bar and for a duration of seconds.

Some people are reaching 600+ hp with 3.3 ltrs or 3.5s, but again, beyond 1.4 bar of boost, some on Motronic and some on Motec or other, High octane fuel, huge turbos (read dead below 4500 RPMs), huge intercoolers, and very very thorough work on the heads flow, valve sizes, ports, manifold, throttle body and so on. Again , they reach that kind of hp for a few seconds.

I am sure you can understand our hesitation when we read those numbers and a 6.9s run with a street car. Either Tal's engine is not what we think it is (maybe including him if he bought it 2nd. hand), or it weighs less than 3000 lbs with that gearing and acceleration numbers if he runs at 0.9 bar.

You are definitely a very talented Motec tuner, it is not debatable, I wish you lived a bit closer, or actually the other way around. Peace.

Bill S. Extremely sorry to have ripped off your thread. We should start another one with only numbers and less talk.