M-Phibian

Kevin,

My point is that unless a tuner physically prevents someone from running a certain level of boost, the amount of boost that is actually ran is the owner's decision, not the tuners. That's not a decision based on tuning philosophy...it's based on what the customer wants.

As you know, Todd uses boost controllers with his setups, so the owners of the cars can crank the boost to whatever level they choose. Now, he can and does make *very strong* recommendations to them regarding how much boost they should use, but again...the decision ultimately lies with the owner of the car.

Jamie told Todd that he was going to run relatively high boost on stock internals. Todd adamantly recommended against it, but unless he uses something other than an EBC, he can't stop Jamie from doing so. The best he can do is tune the car as optimally as he can, in order to try and keep it safe for when owner does crank up the boost.

Also, the fact that he does use EBCs on his setups is of huge importance to me. Sure, it puts him at risk of negative press if a customer uses too much boost and blows his motor...but the controllability/adjustability factor that it allows for the customer far outweighs the negatives, IMO.

IRT the 1.5 BAR on my motor vs a stock one, that's exactly my point. Todd didn't even want me, with my built motor, to run past 1.5 BAR. Knowing that...you can only imagine how adamant he was that Jamie, with his stock motor and the same turbos that I have, did NOT run at that level. But again, it's Jamie's choice. 100%.

Later, bro.

P.S. – I still love you.

M-Phibian

Stummel,

It makes 693 rwhp at 1.0 BAR. I could probably run somewhere around 1.0 BAR safely on 95 octane.

I'll do some pump gas (93 octane @ .9 BAR) runs with it as well and let you know the results. I have pump 100 octane unleaded near my house as well (which is what I'll be running 99% of the time), so I'll also get some data using that fuel also.

Take care.

M-Phibian

Hi Brad,

Yes...from my recently completed build. Built bottom-end, custom cam-grind, custom springs, ported/polished heads, custom intake/exhaust, custom IC's, GT3 cam cynchs, GT3 code on 996TT ECU and water-cooled Garrett GT3076rs (plus some other stuff).

Car made 830 rwhp/780 rwtq @ 1.41 BAR.

KPG

I know...I can feel it We just disagree. My final thoughts on your point is that it is NOT the customer who has the final say, it is the tuner. The customer cannot tune his own car, he needs the tuner to do it, and by tuning for a boost level that is not safe it is the tuner who gives implicit approval by doing so...I am not getting my requested boost level on my upcoming engine, it was summarily dismissed, so in my world the customer(me) does not have the final say....just as well the more I think about it...lol...take care and be safe. Kevin

M-Phibian

Kev,

One thing you may not realize...when Todd tunes a motor for say 1.3 BAR, the tuning is still good for well beyond that *automatically*. That's how Bobby can crank his K24/20G's to 1.9 BAR on stock internals, even though Todd never tuned it for more then 1.3 BAR. Bobby simply uses an accurate air/fuel monitor and watches his A/F as he turns up his boost to make sure she isn't running lean.

Since Kevin doesn't use EBCs with his setups (as far as I'm aware), he does indeed have the final say. Not the customer.

But a setup like Todd's that uses EBCs along with an *automatically adaptable* tuning program ...gives the customer the final say by default, due to it's inherent adjustability. Not the tuner.

This is the same type of set up that most ST Supras, TT Vipers, EVOs, etc... all use.

I could've cranked boost way past safe levels on my 711 rwhp Supra as well, but my tuner told me what was safe and I never exceeded that. Had I chose to do so, it would have been my choice. Not his.

Anyway, I guess you're right that we just look at it differently. No harm, no foul. Later bro.

Jean

KPG you have made the right choice of tuner, congratulations.

I wish someone had enlightened us all before we invested all this money with Protomotive (ouppps not a sponsor!). I will remember Todd's wrong philosophy while I am racing my third year with this engine untouched (and that includes the lowly Garretts on it).

Acropora

Doh!

KPG

No prob Jean... If you want to spend substantially more money for marginally more performance then that is entirely your choice... We wont have the peak numbers that your "enlightened" tuner provides, but I will take 10% less HP at 40% less cost everytime....did I tell you I have a GT3R crank? Thats right you already mentioned it in another thread...lol... Cheer up, life is good....mine anyway....

BTW, how long would a motor with 1.5 bar on stock internals survive...3 years at the track? Not likely.

KPG

No prob my friend, a disagreement coupled with lots of mutual respect isnt such a bad thing after all, keeps things interesting. Some others should try it...lol.. Take care, Kevin

Jean

Thanks for explaining this me, I was not aware of all this, it is fantastic information. I will consider this the next time I choose an engine builder. I will also ask from Todd Knighton at Protomotive to try to hook up with you to get some good tips about what an engine is supposed to be like and how to get high HP with low boost.

TB993tt

Firstly contratulations on a stunning set of 60-130 Gs

The "fixed boost" debate is not a debate on 6speed it is a well known "fact" that one manually increases the boost to get ever more power....

Todd K is one of the few Porsche tuners who uses fixed boost and has so much experience that he can make it work (and then some).
Todd K's set up is similar to the original Ruf CTR (Yellowbird) set up with Motronic reacting by pressure sensing in the inlet manifold - one can read the pro/con benefits on Protomotive web site.
I know that on the old CTR the engine ran very overfuelled and always stunk of gas which I always put down to the ECU delivering enough gas for when the **** is turned and the full 1.2bar dialled in.
So my understanding is Todd is "tuning" the ECU to be able to give the correct fuelling/timing for "a" maximum boost level (say 1.4bar) under a certain set of conditions determined mainly by ambient and running temp when setting up the numbers.
There is no "automatic" level above where Todd has signed off the numbers other than the "safety net" he has left which presumably allows for extreme heat conditions. Just winding up boost above where the components work in harmony will surely just produce hot air and without the cooling and fuelling to support, the increase the power increase will be minimal or even a decrease ?

When one watches how a Motronic controlled boost works you can see the futility of manually winding beyond the maximum/optimum level. A Motronic boost ECU simply works the numbers and as the heat goes up it shifts to the next set of numbers with reduced timing and reduced boost. If a tuner ***** it up and the motor keeps heating up then the ECU will cut the spark.

So presumably Todd only has control of the timing so by manually playing with your boost the first thing to "go" will be your timing which will retard like the factory until it reaches maximum, this is where things will get nasty - the evidence seems to show that Todd tunes these motors well and customers are not managing to reach the critical temperatures.

KPG

Jean, thanks for the offer...I know it comes from the heart. Are you suggesting a Proto- UMW joint project? If you are then clearly a " strategic thinker" such as yourself must know this was brought up previously...just cannot remember who brought it up or when ....Anyway, we can go around and around as long as you like...remember, the ball is in your court.

BTW, still waiting for your answer to the 1.5 bar on stock internals at the track...3 year service life?

Red rooster

Hey guys,
Is it safe to lift heads now !!

Geoff

KPG

Just a difference of opinion. Take care, Kevin

M-Phibian

My new 60-130 time is 4.90 seconds with 2 shifts on a .8% uphill grade, while spinning my tires in each gear. 100-200 km/h on that run was 4.23.

I used a mix of 65% 100 octane and 35% 117 octane. Started in 2nd gear, shifted quickly (but did not power shift).