9M build
08-06-2010, 12:59 PM
#63
I'm asking because I am also thinking of doing these engine mods but the thought of adding another 10K to the price (about a half of the original cost to do the upgrade) seems excessive to me just to have an original engine in the closet.
08-06-2010, 11:38 PM
#64
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Well, he is from Seattle and can drive all year around. Maybe just doesn't want to take the car off the road for the time it takes for the rebuild, and then all the time that is over and above what was thought to be the time it would take. After he could sell off the original to the next guy who wants to do that at likely not much loss. Hell, I'd do the same thing if it was financial viable.
08-08-2010, 02:33 PM
#65
So - got back from Scotland road trip about 2-3 hours ago (pictures posted in other thread) - what can I tell you?
My first impressions weren't far off - it took until about the middle of the second day's driving to feel as though I was getting used to the extra shove in the back - up until that point the engine was completely dominating the whole experience - the noise, the way it just kept on pulling, everything.
The first day was pretty wet, and although the rear end was perfectly controllable under power, I did have a spell where I was experiencing something I've very rarely encountered in the 993, namely a sort of 'momentum oversteer' - it was so pronounced and repeated, I became convinced that either my rear tyre pressures were wrong ( I had checked them before I set off), or that the guys at 9m had inadvertently stiffened up the suspension settings (I have AST coilovers which have damping adjusters above the mounting points in the engine bay) - but when I checked everything was as it should be.
It was only later that I realised I was simply driving too hard - intoxicated by the new toy slung out over the rear axle, I was trying to extract every last bit of acceleration between corners, standing on the brakes, and then being unable to get back on the throttle properly, as I was still carrying too much speed - basic, and a bit embarrassing, I know.
Once I'd had a bit of word with myself, I got into a decent rhythm and was able to thoroughly enjoy my epic new motor and what I can only believe are the finest driving roads in the world - if anyone knows better, please tell me where!
My first impressions weren't far off - it took until about the middle of the second day's driving to feel as though I was getting used to the extra shove in the back - up until that point the engine was completely dominating the whole experience - the noise, the way it just kept on pulling, everything.
The first day was pretty wet, and although the rear end was perfectly controllable under power, I did have a spell where I was experiencing something I've very rarely encountered in the 993, namely a sort of 'momentum oversteer' - it was so pronounced and repeated, I became convinced that either my rear tyre pressures were wrong ( I had checked them before I set off), or that the guys at 9m had inadvertently stiffened up the suspension settings (I have AST coilovers which have damping adjusters above the mounting points in the engine bay) - but when I checked everything was as it should be.
It was only later that I realised I was simply driving too hard - intoxicated by the new toy slung out over the rear axle, I was trying to extract every last bit of acceleration between corners, standing on the brakes, and then being unable to get back on the throttle properly, as I was still carrying too much speed - basic, and a bit embarrassing, I know.
Once I'd had a bit of word with myself, I got into a decent rhythm and was able to thoroughly enjoy my epic new motor and what I can only believe are the finest driving roads in the world - if anyone knows better, please tell me where!
08-09-2010, 12:07 PM
#66
Drifting
Fluke, nice thread and photographs of your Scotland drive!! Who knows what the value of our cars will do in the future, original, complete well maintained and documented examples have historically retained a higher level of desirabilty and value.
Some of the Benefits:
As stated above, you can still drive the car with original engine.
Buying someone else's blown engine just increases its chance of it staying on the road.
Completely cleaned engine block and components reassembled with new parts as time and $$$ is available.
Display piece on a stand in the shop/garage as the rebuild progresses.
Some of the Benefits:
As stated above, you can still drive the car with original engine.
Buying someone else's blown engine just increases its chance of it staying on the road.
Completely cleaned engine block and components reassembled with new parts as time and $$$ is available.
Display piece on a stand in the shop/garage as the rebuild progresses.
08-10-2010, 03:46 PM
#67
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Firstly apologies to Fluke for not having the time recently to give this thread my full attention, there are occasions when customers, engine builds & suppliers demand my full attention and over the last few months I have been well & truly in the thick of it.
Anyway, here's a sampler of the power & torque graphs from this 9m 993VR+3 engine package, as compared with another customer's 9m 993VR+2 conversion and his original 993nVR as arrived. Said second customer is now having his engine upgraded to a +3......
Anyway, here's a sampler of the power & torque graphs from this 9m 993VR+3 engine package, as compared with another customer's 9m 993VR+2 conversion and his original 993nVR as arrived. Said second customer is now having his engine upgraded to a +3......
08-11-2010, 06:39 PM
#69
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just a quick update from an oldie, I think I was the second ever stage 2+ conversion, I use the car 80% + on the track, it hs done approx 36,000 miles since the conversion, has the solid lifters - I would definitely NOT use hydraulic lifters on the track with this conversion, the high lift cams and hydraulic lifters do not mix, BUT in 36,000 miles ~ 30,000 miles on track thrashed to an inch of its life on every single cm of track mileage they have never needed adjusting, they have been checked three times - first time engine in car - second time engine out, labour the same as such a pig to check in car, third time, march this year, just went for a bottom valve set check as they are still firmly in spec and no need for engine out. Testament to colins well engineered lifters.
The car just pulls sooooo strongly, and has needed no more than usual maintenance, it is brilliant on the track and up to about 6k revs will keep up with 996 GT3 mk 1 easily, up to same revs will keep up with 996 GT3 mk2 with a bit of effort, however, the 997 GT3's are a bit more problematic, that's evolution for you I guess.
The big benefit is the fun to be had driving a 993, with other mods (extensive brakes, suspension, LSD etc and lightweighting to 1270kg's) it is such a joy to drive I love it to bits.
I have a set of 3.8 RS pistons and barrells and intake trumpets but have had no need for any maintenance issues that wil cause me to pull the trigger on a refresh....... :-( oh well one day. Its an expensive conversion, but for me the utlimate conversion and now makes much more sense given that the only car close is the RS and a decent one of these will set you back £80k plus now (not when I did the conversion). they were about £50 - £60k then.
For me the best part is the expression on the face of other drivers when they see the performance, the only thing is last year I sucumbed to an RS body kit, when it was std 993 it was a joy, for a GT3 driver to come up and ask to see the supercharger and then pop the lid and show them a std 993 NVR and say I have had a lot of tuition ;-) now they just assume its a hot RS.
Some pics:
The car just pulls sooooo strongly, and has needed no more than usual maintenance, it is brilliant on the track and up to about 6k revs will keep up with 996 GT3 mk 1 easily, up to same revs will keep up with 996 GT3 mk2 with a bit of effort, however, the 997 GT3's are a bit more problematic, that's evolution for you I guess.
The big benefit is the fun to be had driving a 993, with other mods (extensive brakes, suspension, LSD etc and lightweighting to 1270kg's) it is such a joy to drive I love it to bits.
I have a set of 3.8 RS pistons and barrells and intake trumpets but have had no need for any maintenance issues that wil cause me to pull the trigger on a refresh....... :-( oh well one day. Its an expensive conversion, but for me the utlimate conversion and now makes much more sense given that the only car close is the RS and a decent one of these will set you back £80k plus now (not when I did the conversion). they were about £50 - £60k then.
For me the best part is the expression on the face of other drivers when they see the performance, the only thing is last year I sucumbed to an RS body kit, when it was std 993 it was a joy, for a GT3 driver to come up and ask to see the supercharger and then pop the lid and show them a std 993 NVR and say I have had a lot of tuition ;-) now they just assume its a hot RS.
Some pics:
08-11-2010, 07:21 PM
#72
Rennlist Member
Just love learning more about these 9M kits. The stage 2 or 3 kit is firmly on my agenda for 2011 or 2012. Being long distance from the supplier poses a few problems of course, hence my many questions on this board.
In your gentlemens first hand experience and from your disucssions and experience with 9M perhaps you could pass opinion on the set up you think best for me?
Current drivetrain state of tune is:
Non Varioram, 44,000mls (mostly open road), engine seems tight and strong and makes good compression. Upgrades include Dach X cat delete pipe, RSR mufflers, RS engine mounts, RS LWFC, Wong chip modified for RS LWFC, RS single pulley, RS CF heater bypass tube, RSR tranny mounts., Motorsound airbox cover opened up by dremel for freer flow, new MAF & plugs, K&N airfilter. The vehicle hasnt been dynod in this configuration. The build date is 10/93 and its a M150 option engine designed to operate on unleaded as well as leaded fuel. Probably uses alot of early 993/late 964 engine components.
Intended Useage:
This is an occassional drive car. Long touring trips, tight twisties, spirited driving and 1 or 2 annual track days.
Ideal outcome:
Reliable and tractable engine characteristics that ensure vehicle is still enjoyable and driveable around town as well as open road and spirited driving. HP target between 355 bhp - 370 bhp. Torque target 320lbt+.
Options:
Do I go for stage 2 or 3? 3.8l conversion? Do I need new exhaust manifold? Solid lifters or Hydroylic? Motec M48 or Motronic piggy back/ECU?
At this stage budget is not the deciding factor but I will be tuning this vehicle remote from 9M with only the benefits of my mechanic and a rolling road. Specialist ECU programming wil be an issue hence I ask if Motec M48 is the more logical option as Motec tuning is easily accomplished here.
Effectively I would like to achieve (together with other modifications) an outcome that is enjoyable and puts the car on par performancewise with other hi hp Porsche derivatives of recent years but is comfortable enough and retains all important functions to serve as a long distance tourer for myself and wife on an annual basis regardless of weather. The vehicle already has solid rear suspension shims, RS adjustable bars, Bilstein suspension, new A arm bushes and brake improvements but obviously I will be lookin to achieve a "whole package" so will upgrade drivetrain to suit. Ive had the 993 10 years. Id like to binrg it to a state of tune that I can enjoy for another 10 years.
Colin, 95993, our thread initiator and others with relavant experience your input would be appreciated...
Cheers
M
In your gentlemens first hand experience and from your disucssions and experience with 9M perhaps you could pass opinion on the set up you think best for me?
Current drivetrain state of tune is:
Non Varioram, 44,000mls (mostly open road), engine seems tight and strong and makes good compression. Upgrades include Dach X cat delete pipe, RSR mufflers, RS engine mounts, RS LWFC, Wong chip modified for RS LWFC, RS single pulley, RS CF heater bypass tube, RSR tranny mounts., Motorsound airbox cover opened up by dremel for freer flow, new MAF & plugs, K&N airfilter. The vehicle hasnt been dynod in this configuration. The build date is 10/93 and its a M150 option engine designed to operate on unleaded as well as leaded fuel. Probably uses alot of early 993/late 964 engine components.
Intended Useage:
This is an occassional drive car. Long touring trips, tight twisties, spirited driving and 1 or 2 annual track days.
Ideal outcome:
Reliable and tractable engine characteristics that ensure vehicle is still enjoyable and driveable around town as well as open road and spirited driving. HP target between 355 bhp - 370 bhp. Torque target 320lbt+.
Options:
Do I go for stage 2 or 3? 3.8l conversion? Do I need new exhaust manifold? Solid lifters or Hydroylic? Motec M48 or Motronic piggy back/ECU?
At this stage budget is not the deciding factor but I will be tuning this vehicle remote from 9M with only the benefits of my mechanic and a rolling road. Specialist ECU programming wil be an issue hence I ask if Motec M48 is the more logical option as Motec tuning is easily accomplished here.
Effectively I would like to achieve (together with other modifications) an outcome that is enjoyable and puts the car on par performancewise with other hi hp Porsche derivatives of recent years but is comfortable enough and retains all important functions to serve as a long distance tourer for myself and wife on an annual basis regardless of weather. The vehicle already has solid rear suspension shims, RS adjustable bars, Bilstein suspension, new A arm bushes and brake improvements but obviously I will be lookin to achieve a "whole package" so will upgrade drivetrain to suit. Ive had the 993 10 years. Id like to binrg it to a state of tune that I can enjoy for another 10 years.
Colin, 95993, our thread initiator and others with relavant experience your input would be appreciated...
Cheers
M
08-12-2010, 02:23 AM
#75
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Hi Macca,
For track days solid lifters, your HP and torque is a testing target, for a non varioram you will really only be looking about 350hp and ~ 300lbft unless you go 3.8l, to really hit your figs you will need to go 9M 4.0l conversion rather than the 3.8, I have driven in 4.0l (loaded 4s) and mine (1270kg's) back to back on circuit and frankly I would do some careful lightweighting rear seat delete, RS door cards, rear wiper delete and lightweight seats, you will have same performance and better drive (but this was on a 4s versus my RS weight comparison). Stick with your exhaust manifolds, I have cargraphic extractor manifolds and they robbed power, a numbr of the guys who race in the UK have done extensive manifold tests and the stock is best.
Re ecu have no idea in this area.
So if money no object go 4l, otherwise on your engine I would stick with 3.6 but do some judicious lightweighting.
Cheers
John
For track days solid lifters, your HP and torque is a testing target, for a non varioram you will really only be looking about 350hp and ~ 300lbft unless you go 3.8l, to really hit your figs you will need to go 9M 4.0l conversion rather than the 3.8, I have driven in 4.0l (loaded 4s) and mine (1270kg's) back to back on circuit and frankly I would do some careful lightweighting rear seat delete, RS door cards, rear wiper delete and lightweight seats, you will have same performance and better drive (but this was on a 4s versus my RS weight comparison). Stick with your exhaust manifolds, I have cargraphic extractor manifolds and they robbed power, a numbr of the guys who race in the UK have done extensive manifold tests and the stock is best.
Re ecu have no idea in this area.
So if money no object go 4l, otherwise on your engine I would stick with 3.6 but do some judicious lightweighting.
Cheers
John