Macca

John,

Thanks once again for your useful insight.

In mid 2008 we spoke by PM. Your wisdom was of use to me in choosing to install the LWFC in Feb 2010(which I had purchased and had sitting in a box since 2007!) as well as ensuring I had a chip to address the potential stalling issues (Steve Wong in the US came to the rescue with a remedy which has proven reliable). I also took your advice on sticky tires, lighter wheels and solid rear suspension mounts....all these imporvements were well chosen.

My latest round of improvements has been focused more on weight. In Feb 2010 the car was corner weight balanced after further lowering (new wheels and rubber) and came in at 1382kg with half tank of gas, half standard resivoiur of washer fluid and the usual stuff I have floating around the car (spare wheel, pump, toolkit, CDs, sunglasses, extinguisher etc etc). I doubt many cars rolled off the factory production line anywhere near the published weight - especially post 1996 cars! I have since reduced weight to 1365kg with odyssey battery + rennline bracket and cut off switch, Dach X, CF under carriage covers and CF Heater bypass pipe (all CF from Gert). The interior spres no luxury with upgraded speakers & cross overs, hardback heated sports seats, overmats, hi end head unit, auto dipping rear vision mirror, full CF - dash doors, steeringwheel - everything, sound deadinging, extinguisher, cup holder, rain sensor wipers the full raft including auto window lifter (driver side), sunroof and air con. I guess Im trying to have my cake and eat it.

Fact is I cant see myself ever heading south of 1320kg. At Xmas I will fit some CF backed racing bucket type seats for a saving of 27kg a pair including brackets over the heavy electric sports seats. I will be adding heated elements to those by the way! Then maybe another 10kg from some smaller mods. With RSR mufflers and Dach X, RS engine and RSR tranny mounts, solid rear shims and LWFC I really dont want any more noise than what I have in the cabin - right now its just perfect for a fang or a long tour.

I think after reading your post, referring to your 2008 feedback, looking at notes I have made along the way on the 9M conversion etc the realisation is, that like everything with these cars there are compromises - either financial or otherwise. Fact is I dont intend this to be the fastest car in my fleet. I just like the "soul" these cars provide over latest GT3 or RS offerings.

Based on the facts:

1). my target weight will be circa 1320-1330kg no less (even my old 993RS weighed in at 1325kg - comfort spec)
2). The car will see very limited annual track time
3). The car already has the earlier 964 type cam sprokets
4). Its a NVR car
5). Any money I dont spend on the 993 can appease other interests...

Then having thought it all through including your comments and others it would appear to me I should be considering more closes the straight 3.6 stage 2 9M conversion. Cylinders, more agressive cam and maybe some valve train upgrades with the package. Keep the motronics with custom GIAC or similar chip. This would put my target HP (taking into account existing exhaust and retaining factory headers) at around 350-352bhp, and 300-310 lbft torque. With a 1330kg wet weight we are talking power to weight ratio similar to 2004 GT3 Mk2. Im estimating Cost ex VAT (export) for parts to be circa 5k GBP (Colin may beable to chip in on this). Given my local labour is cheaper than in GB perhaps another 4-5k GB for fitting. Result is 20% more power (current power circa 287bhp) with a circa 30% improvenet in power to weight ration over catory 272bhp on weight of say 1390kg+

Any I on the right track here? Is there anything Im mssing (other than a lotto win)? Is the 3.8l stage 3 kit significnatly (1-2k GBP) more expensive than the above???

Thanks in advance.
Cheers
M

'95 993

Hi Macca, for my lightwieghting I went as follows:

1) No air con, car never had any from factory so easy mod :-) does have sunroof though :-(
2) Exhaust - cat by pass std boxes
3) LWF
4) Rear wiper delete
5) Rear seat delete
6) Recaro SPG seats
7) stereo system junked - was the 10 speaker hi fi pack but all rippped out bar the wiring - SD card radio (no CD) and front speakers put back in
8) Carbon fibre door panels
9) RS aluminium front bonnet

add back in front strut brace, RS rear and big red front brakes and harness bar and drivers six point harness and that gave me 1270kg on the sacles at Brands Hatch with about 20% fuel in tank, no driver.

No idea on the cost of the 3.8l ask colin, if you have good compression then just go for the top end IMHO, heads, valves, cams, remap, solid lifters and with your other mods you should be fine.

Cheers

John

NineMeister

Prices? Here you go:
Typical 9m+2 conversion = £11k
Typical (?) 9m+3 conversion = 15k
9m Heads/valves/springs/retainers/camshaft parts package = £6295
9m 102mm P&C kit = £3295
All excluding VAT

The difference between the parts prices and the conversions is made up with engine remove/rebuild/refit labour (including wheel alignment), gaskets, oil, consumeables, 100 cell cats & live remapping.

Macca

Hi John,

Thanks for your weight loss notation.

Unfortunately I am (well the wife too) adverse to loosing my air con, rear seats and I want to retain all my original (never been dinged!) factory panels but I wouldnt be adverse to replacing the front hood with an OEM RS alloy item if one came up at reasonable price (im guessing we are only talking saving of 4-5kg here). Unlikely these days I suspect.

Ive done 2,3 and later this year number 6.

I can see a good chunk of your 100kg weight reduction has come from aircon "delete", rear seat delete, rear wiper delete, and changing the interior door panels (I dont have the Hi Fi option myself). There are some good clues there but I would have to think long and hard about them myself.

My car sits at 1365kg half tank gas all fluids and usual extras (spare 1l mobile 1, owners maual, cds, sunnies etc). Factory says 1370kg standard spec for 993 C2. Im not sure if that is with sunroof. I thought I had done much better in reducing weight but then I looked at all the things Ive added. The Hardback heated sports seats were heavier than the originals, techart fogs, turbo bumper, extra eclectrics and added frills. Granted Ive probably added 25kg back in over the years!

On further reflection without compromise I think after a seat change and a few smaller items left on the table I ill be unlikely to go lower than 1340kg square with fluids once I factor in the additions of Big Reds, Guards LSD and additional oil cooler.

Its an expensive hobby this!

Cheers
M

'95 993

expensive hobby - understatement!!!! I forgot to mention I had colin pop in a lsd when the engine was out for the conversion ;-) well it would have been rude not too and my wallet clearly wasn't light enough!!!

But we can't take it with us, but I def want to be buried in my 993!!

Cheers

John

Macca

Hi John. I was thinking about that the other evening, and I thought what a shame it would be for my 993 to rust under the ground with my skeleton, then I designed in my mind a titatinium factory "special last wishes" department container to put the car in before it was buried.....then I thought what a shame it wouldnt be run so I invented a device that would start it every 30 days and run it for five minutes at various RPM, and then I reliased Id need ventilation and a supply of fuel.....so my shrine had pipes coming out of the ground and a filler nossel for fuel and a perpertual annual supply agreement with Shell for 98RON paid for by a trust that earnt interest from the proceeds of my Porsche book collection which was to be sold on my death by the lawyer and invested along with funds gained from the sale of my 1999 mint Porsche Bike FS and 1972 Porsche Design Avora Skibob (very rare in yr 2050).................then the day dream started to to get a bit stupid to be honest and I snapped out of it!

PS. Meant to ask you. What LSD did you go for. I am currently researching this and have a couple of options but interested in what Colin recomended and if you found it a great improvement?

Cheers
M

'95 993

My resting place is much simpler, fill her up with 99ron super, flat out on back straight at goodwood, me strapped into the seat and no lifting at the end (all by remote control) and it all ends in a ball of flame, me my favourite circuit and my car in a funeral pyre!

Enough morbnid thoughts, i went with a second hand porsche genuine LSD that colin had, i almost bought a guard one in the group buy a few years ago, the 2nd hand one was cheaper, did subsequently get it rebuilt with porsche motorsport plates, when you added in 2nd cost and rebuild cost then guards one prob better bet but am happy with the one I have. Hope that helps? def makes a big difference on track and worthwhile difference on very twisty steep hills especially with all the extra torque from the 9m kit (btw everyone focuses on BHP and the 9m conversion is in my view more about torque, was doing some interesting back to back comparisons (with 993RS running about 320BHP) at Castle Combe circuit yesterday and my car with its taller gearing would pull so hard out of corners with the extra torque (which was very noticeable over a 993 3.8RS with 100 cell cats and remap) and would def exist faster than the RS, the Rs was better in the twsity bits tho with its tighter box enabling it to sprint between chicanes even with my extra torque I couldn't match the narrow ratio box, next mod - RS regear?

Macca

John. Not a bad alternative senario. Creamation by 993!

Ive talked to Guards about building be a Porsche unit with their cltuch pack. Waiting for a suitable donor. Works out almost same price as a new Motorsports unit. I think your comments confirm thats the way I will go. Hell of a job to fit in a non LSD car though (labour wise). Less again to leave behind LOL!

I think you are right about the 9M kit. The metrics havent been lost on me. The 3.6L heads only stage 2 gives me approx 20% increase in power from current 285ish bhp. Closer to 26% from factory. But the torque increase from factory is 30%. Thats a useful gain for real world driving and leaves a larger impression after a drive. Better still its still a n/a engine which for me gives more enjoyment than the turbo equivalent (sound, feel, responsiveness etc).

Cant wait. Thanks for the info...

Cheers
M

'95 993

Macca the original lsd was fitted when the engine was out anyway, so colin just charged me for the lsd and some time for setting it up. Subsequently I had it rebuilt and my local (Colin is to far away from me for regular servicing, just treats for me and my car ;-) ) 993 specialist was able to remove the lsd withe gearbox and engine in situ, rebuild it when removed and refit to the car, all without engine or gearbox remove, if i remember correctly the labour wasn't too bad, the parts were dear but not so bad a job for a 993 specialist. (which I am not by the way so may be wrong??)

you are spot on with your comments re the feel of the car, and that is from the many people who have ridden in my car, not just me!

Cheers

John

race911

First, I'll comment on why I'm quoting this. Over here, especially West Coast and specifically Bay Area, you won't get one GT3 person of any generation to even take a passing interest in an air cooled 911. Yeah, I'm kind of hidden away on the back side of the paddock in my garage, but you'd think that if a car of a generation or two previous to yours was easily outpacing you (hell, even if he was equal, or it took some effort to catch up) he'd come over and have a chat. Not here. Certainly it's not the point of being out there to impress, but it sure seems like you guys elsewhere in the world have a lot more camaraderie.

So onto the general commentary about everyone's cars/builds. It's so great to see that the hard, hard effort (with no guarantee) of the shops involved in modifying these cars past what the factory ever could have envisioned has paid off. Even though it's expensive, who here thinks that Colin, or any others at this end of the business are undercompensated?

'95 993

Hi Ken,

The camaraderie is great here, was at the track this thursday just gone and spend ages with the owners of a new 997GT3RS 1 week old first outing at the circuit chatting about all things porsche, it is one of the very best aspects for me, maybe it is because most of my track days are Porsche club days, but even track days organised by commercial operators with an eclectic mix of cars you always have a chat with the other drivers, was once at goodwood and the organiser cam over to a bunch of us chatting (open pit lane) and said guys you do realise no one is on track, now I know you all like to chat but does anyone want to go on the circuit!! actually similar thing happened on thursday, a bunch of us were chatting, owners of everything from said 997gt3RS to 944 clubsport when I realised only 1 car on track, I said to the organiser is this a closed session or something, she said no so we all ran to our cars le mans style to go out sounds a bit different on the west coast to say the least!!

as to colins pay, as a fee paying customer, I of course believe he should cut his labour rate by about half!!! Hi Colin, hope you are well

NineMeister

Very well, thanks! Looks like you're doing OK yourself & always good to know that the car is still performing well.

As for cutting the labour rate in half, does it count that I'm currently working twice as hard to jobs out of the door and get new products onto the market at the same time?

'95 993

Ok that will do for me, and will throw in a knighthood as well, arise Sir Belton, knighted for services to Porsche tuning ;-) seriously keep up the good work and worth every penny, still puts a grin on my face and a scowl on the face of other drivers (who I am chasing on the circuit) after ~ four faultess years :-)

burtraccoon

Nope. Because your not **** wet through, not hungry, not digging holes in the ground and nobodies shooting at you. To labour.....

k722070

going to add some more numbers to this thread since there is useful dyno, price info and driving impressions already available in it.
I installed 9m heads and the schrick 964ss cams they sell with the 9m 993+2 package.
this was for my track car so already had the lwf and no cats part of the package.
missing is the motronic live remap which isn't available, but the engine can't idle without an ecu flash due to the cams.
FVD Brombacher sells and installs schrick cams, they had a map available so they did the flash.
all numbers are from a dynojet since that is what NASA and PCA use for competition paperwork.

my street car with 200 cell cats and maxflow mufflers, max 242hp, 224 torque
my track car pre rebuild, max 273hp, 245 torque
my track car post rebuild, max 297hp, 260 torque
so 9m heads, schrick cams and FVD flash results in 24hp increase, 15 torque increase.

the 9m 993+2 package includes lwf, 100 cell cats and live remap is comparable to my street car at 242hp to track car at 297hp for the 55hp increase shown in other threads.
so figure doing the entire 993+2 package from stock, if you can get the live remap, there is an actual 50hp gain.

couple small issues
first dyno pull is usually low, my guess is the 1st pull showing 297hp would have been an even 300hp for the 2nd and 3rd.
my track car's timing was off as measured when I took it apart, so properly tuned the old 273hp might have been more.

the big issue
A/F ratio is too lean. the 297hp result is with A/F starting at 15+ and not dropping to 13.0 until 5800 rpms.
this is how porsche programmed our ecu's, my street car shows a similar but worse problem, 15 at 3k and barely reaching 13.0 at redline.
(the difference could be the oem fuel pressure regulator in my track car measured 58psi, street car measured 56 psi)
in fact it looks like on my street car the knock sensor kicks in twice reducing the timing at 3600 and 4800 rpms for a loss of 10hp each instance.
a live remap is needed to fix this issue.
since that is not available I added fuel pressure until the tuner at the shop figured it was safe to run at the track. only needed 5lbs extra.
this extra pressure lowered the A/F ratio to 13 at 3600 to 5500 rpms to keep the pistons from burning up.
sadly this produces too rich A/F of 12 at 6500 and lowers hp to 284.
will install an A/F sensor connected to the AiM data so I can compare real time rpms to A/F ratio and tune the fuel pressure to balance hp to safety.
not much is needed, probably end up around 60 or 61 psi to get the A/F curve I want.
also still trying to find a way to get a live remap, my guess is max hp could reach 305 easy with a proper tune.

as it is now my hp only increased by 10, but it feels like more.
throttle is a more direct link to acceleration and as mentioned in other posts redline comes up much quicker.
engine didn't blow up during our first track weekend, blast to drive, very satisfying result.
on the other hand this is kind of useless because heads with an sai port are not available.
I even paid a 15% premium for sai port design and tooling and still didn't get them.
so for our street cars this isn't available.
but my street car's clutch will be changed soon and I might install different cams and then drive to giac in california for a live remap.
won't be 9m heads but the live remap, lwf, fixed varioram runners and different cams could still produce a much better engine.