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Hard to make sense of the above, but it sounds like you rebuilt your engine with 9M heads, non-9M cams, and no live remap, and it doesn't make as much power as other similar builds. That makes sense.
my street car with 200 cell cats and maxflow mufflers, max 242hp, 224 torque
my track car pre rebuild, max 273hp, 245 torque
my track car post rebuild, max 297hp, 260 torque
so 9m heads, schrick cams and FVD flash results in 24hp increase, 15 torque increase.
How about posting some dyno sheets? The numbers mean little without seeing the shape of the various power curves. If you go back and calculate average HP over a reasonable working RPM range (5k to 7.4k) I think you’ll find the results are more impressive than the peak numbers imply.
What is the reason why you can’t do a live remap with 9M to resolve this issue? Also, was there a reason you decided to not use their sport cams for the build
assuming the numbers are at the wheels, Dyno charts would be great if you could post thx
How about posting some dyno sheets? The numbers mean little without seeing the shape of the various power curves. If you go back and calculate average HP over a reasonable working RPM range (5k to 7.4k) I think you’ll find the results are more impressive than the peak numbers imply.
I already think it is impressive since it confirms taking a stock 993 and adding the 9m 993+2 package adds around 50hp.
my track car experiment indicates just 9m heads are worth about 24hp, also impressive.
there are already a bunch of dyno graphs posted in this and other 9m head threads.
What is the reason why you can’t do a live remap with 9M to resolve this issue? Also, was there a reason you decided to not use their sport cams for the build
assuming the numbers are at the wheels, Dyno charts would be great if you could post thx
live remap involves the car on a dyno with the specific software to flash the old bosch ecu.
there are lots of dyno shops and there are some shops that can flash the ecu, but very few exist that are both.
9m said the dyno shop they use has a map from similar cars but weren't willing to provide the flash no matter how often I ask.
seems to be confusion about the 9m package.
9m only designs the heads.
cams, springs, retainers, valves and so on is made by other companies.
9m uses Schrick cams, springs and so on but just refers to the products as 9m.
so 9m sport cams = Schrick 964 super sport cams.
Hard to make sense of the above, but it sounds like you rebuilt your engine with 9M heads, non-9M cams, and no live remap, and it doesn't make as much power as other similar builds. That makes sense.
if people need pictures to better understand numbers, here are all the dyno graphs and paperwork for NASA competitors. https://airtable.com/shrtuIZcugofvmC...gWtC3AQ0QAJPI0
my paperwork will be in the utah region, or you can sort the fields by car or year or whatever you want to find specific dyno graphs for the vehicles you are interested.
live remap involves the car on a dyno with the specific software to flash the old bosch ecu.
there are lots of dyno shops and there are some shops that can flash the ecu, but very few exist that are both.
9m said the dyno shop they use has a map from similar cars but weren't willing to provide the flash no matter how often I ask.
seems to be confusion about the 9m package.
9m only designs the heads.
cams, springs, retainers, valves and so on is made by other companies.
9m uses Schrick cams, springs and so on but just refers to the products as 9m.
so 9m sport cams = Schrick 964 super sport cams.
Interesting, yeah I remember something about this when I was communicating with 9M a while back, seemed like the big issue was there were only able to tune the ROW 55-pin ECU's which limited that to '95 only for the US cars. Interestingly, they told me they could flash a 55 pin if sent to them but you would have to pay for it. Maybe since yours is a 97 this presented the problem?
If your numbers are at the wheels then they're not too far off with 9m advertises, the best I've seen with a 9M +2 is 350 hp and 315 lb ft of torque, so if you did 15% drivetrain loss that would be around 289 hp and 268 lb ft of torque to the wheels, so about 14 lb/ft off of advertised. Definitely seems like the ECU tune is the key
Regardless, the dyno graphs show a nice flat torque curve much earlier in the RPM band than stock, so that must be a nice addition as well.
I may have missed it, but what modifications did you do prior to adding the 9M heads?
Maybe contact Jeff Gamroth and have your car shipped to his shop for a Motec install and dyno tune? My guess is you'll see real gains with the parts on the motor.
interesting explanation on the phone today from GIAC tech.
apparently there is no such thing as a 'live remap' for our cars since for every change the chip has to be removed from the ecu, flashed and then soldered back in place.
GIAC has already done tons of dyno work, the dealers have the maps and simply flash the chip.
maybe live remap is a phrase used for flashing or maybe there are shops out there that remove the chip for every change.
more important for me, GIAC claims cars run lean on a dynojet due to the design, the sniffer also measures lean.
my new lambda sensor will be installed next week so I should be able to measure air/fuel real time at the next track weekend.
the suggestion is to wait until real time data is available before flashing the ecu for a problem that doesn't exist.
GIAC says our porsche ecu programming targets A/F ratio of 13.2 so if my car is running 14 or 12, and my fuel pressure is correct, then I have other problems like intake leak or something.
result is I will set the fuel pressure to middle of WSM at 56psi, measure air/fuel real time at june race.
I'll adjust fuel pressure within the WSM range of 52-58 if needed for an a/f ratio change.
if the a/f result is still too lean(or rich) then go looking for intake leak, vacuum leak or maybe fuel pressure issue under load.
my guess is the GIAC guy will be correct and the a/f will be fine.
the good news is I get to go back to the higher hp of 297.
in fact from my dynos the relationship looks to be about 3hp per pound of fuel pressure
and since I will lower psi from 58 to 56 for the first test I get to run with a 300hp engine. yeh.
AFR top, throttle below
pic is 12 seconds during the longest straight we had on the course configuration,
zero throttle at 1:06.5 to full throttle at 1:09.5
the throttle dip at 1:15 is a fast corner then full throttle on a tiny straight at 1:16.
fuel pressure at 56psi smack in the middle of the WSM range.
the above graph hits 13.0 AFR at about 5600 RPM
full data shows any zero throttle AFR jumps to 14.50, any full throttle AFR dumps to 12.0 or lower.
probably designed this way to dump fuel for cooling during any full throttle event.
my take from talking to the GIAC tech and FVD Brombacher is they cannot program the chip to peg AFR near 13
so the range from 14.75 to 12 always exists.
overall it doesn't look to be running too lean and unless I want to spend a bunch of money on an aftermarket ecu
this will have to be good enough.
A little info to add about the schrick cams (I’m in process of installing 9m’s motec +2 kit.) Apparently Colin designed cam that schrick now sells. So he’s not just buying it and slapping a 9m label on it. It’s the other way around as after ordering it as a custom grind it became available in the schrick catalog as their ss cam.
with zero evidence of a problem I replaced the 23yr old fuel pump with the 993 motorsport version.
the spikes to lean and rich are still there but in a smaller range and only for a second or two.
the big news is during full throttle, fuel is no longer dumped producing afr's below 10.
so hp is not being lost during acceleration.
the graph is afr top, throttle bottom, on the front straight, 3rd to 6th gear.
that first dip to 11.38 is shifting to 4th and only lasts 2 seconds.
otherwise the afr range is 13.42 to 12.65 for 15 seconds of full throttle, which makes me very happy.
05-19-2020, 11:41 PM
