993 WB Values are UP!!!
10-20-2021, 10:20 AM
#1456
Rennlist Member
Good advice re the practicality of living with an air cooled 911.
I can't speak to the particular car, because haven't gone back on your posts to understand situation. I also presume you aren't talking about how a 993 drives. Rather the quality of the car.
I think you want to do a PPI for sure. To know what you are getting, what could need work right away, within first year or second and third year potential items. Odds are you are going to want to sort something out when you take ownership whether that is maintenance, replacement or modification. Trick is to find a car that fits your budget and stomach for those three things. These cars aren't cheap to do anything, unless you wrench yourself, then it's more reasonable. Knowing what you are getting plays into the fun you will have big time. Nobody likes bad surprises. Those three things I mention will also eat into your fun time, don't recall where you live as I type this, but depending on your driving season and the work to be done, will take driving time away. Then I would say, these cars will always need something or you will always want to do something to them that fits those three categories. Maintenance is a given (I hope for all).
On my 930, which had mechanical and exterior restoration, it still had some sorting to be done that caused drivability issues. This was in December 2019 into 2020. Not a big issue. Then this Spring, I needed to replace the alternator. Again not a big deal but speaks to the point of there might always be something as these are old cars and parts start to fail. One thing I am starting to do on the 930 is to just proactively replace critical things. Will be doing the fuel system in the Spring. If I had the budget, I would just do it all at once.
My approach with my aircooleds has been to buy the best I can afford. Ideally something with lower mileage as I like to be the one putting the miles on the car.
I think you want to do a PPI for sure. To know what you are getting, what could need work right away, within first year or second and third year potential items. Odds are you are going to want to sort something out when you take ownership whether that is maintenance, replacement or modification. Trick is to find a car that fits your budget and stomach for those three things. These cars aren't cheap to do anything, unless you wrench yourself, then it's more reasonable. Knowing what you are getting plays into the fun you will have big time. Nobody likes bad surprises. Those three things I mention will also eat into your fun time, don't recall where you live as I type this, but depending on your driving season and the work to be done, will take driving time away. Then I would say, these cars will always need something or you will always want to do something to them that fits those three categories. Maintenance is a given (I hope for all).
On my 930, which had mechanical and exterior restoration, it still had some sorting to be done that caused drivability issues. This was in December 2019 into 2020. Not a big issue. Then this Spring, I needed to replace the alternator. Again not a big deal but speaks to the point of there might always be something as these are old cars and parts start to fail. One thing I am starting to do on the 930 is to just proactively replace critical things. Will be doing the fuel system in the Spring. If I had the budget, I would just do it all at once.
My approach with my aircooleds has been to buy the best I can afford. Ideally something with lower mileage as I like to be the one putting the miles on the car.
10-20-2021, 10:33 AM
#1457
10-20-2021, 10:36 AM
#1458
What about:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...-carrera-s-36/
This is how you spend money on a car and then get less for it
then if you had not made any mods....
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...-carrera-s-36/
This is how you spend money on a car and then get less for it
then if you had not made any mods....
IMO, TechArt and Gemballa exterior mods are value killers. Got to be careful with aesthetics, especially with body parts. Anything other than OEM upgrades (ie Turbo/RS bumpers, spoilers, etc) is a killer. The Gemballa stuff is irreversible and requires holes to be cut in the body itself.
Period correct wheels shouldn't be an issue and is a total non-issue if you include original OEM wheels.
Performance mods can be hit or miss. I have a hard time believing upgrading to OEM RS parts, for instance, would do anything negative to market value.
RWD conversion, which I did, is reversible. Forced induction can be a problem, though. Even if reversed, it can spook people away.
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M. Schneider (10-20-2021)
10-20-2021, 11:00 AM
#1459
Rennlist Member
What boggles my mind sometimes is how pervasive these behaviours are in the used car industry. It's as old as time. Doesn't matter the selling platform. Is there anybody you can truly trust that offers a top notch experience, that really cares about the customer. I don't even mean trust to the point of no inspection etc, but if you go as far as the inspection results match the sellers disclosure.
Want to start a new business with the above in mind?
Want to start a new business with the above in mind?
10-20-2021, 11:22 AM
#1460
I can think of several that try to do that, myself included, counterpoint is that you have buyers with wildly different perspectives that are often difficult to match reality with expectations. Some are only interested in the zero modification original ride height perfect car with super low miles but don't really want to pay up for that, others will accept some mods or cars needing work because they expect a better deal but then are upset at the cost of undoing someone else's dream spec. Some buyers are super particular about chips/dings but don't seem to be interested in 25% cylinder leak down, others don't care if its been repainted or had some body repair as long as its mechanically sound. Trying to be everything to everybody and absorbing individual "complaints" makes sellers a bit jaded so they just minimize the information and let people sort out the details for themselves to the point of "missing" or leaving out anything negative...not to mention the weird situations such as a buyer that puts a deposit down before his wife says she doesn't like the car, then wants you to "partner" with them to sell the car online and submits to a 6-week wait only to get cold feet at the last minute and in the end threatens to sue to get the deposit back. These are the real world situations that make sellers completely crazy when they could have sold the car elsewhere much easier, and deepens the divide between people that just want to honestly present the best car they can and do good business with buyers who know what they want. You have to kiss a lot of frogs these days.
Disclosure is what we're talking about. Do a thorough review of your own as a seller, disclose all items. In the example being discussed, the issues are blatantly obvious. Now as a seller, you may want to accept an accident car or repaint, whatever and be willing to resell it. Same concept applies, disclose all the issues. You will probably find a buyer for that car, this addresses one of your points above, there are folks with different requirements and expectations. This is where the issue is though, sellers trying to pass off a car with issues most would care about without disclosing. It's the maybe they won't notice approach and seller gets higher dollar.
When I say do a thorough review, maybe you don't do leak down and compression testing, that would be a step above and some sellers have those numbers. Which I personally would verify with my own tests.
In terms of buyer expectations as it relates to disclosure. A buyer and especially an enthusiast buyer would believe the selling dealer knows what buyers are concerned about and interested in. Therefore the buyer expectation is likely built into most, that the seller knows, but what the seller discloses is another thing.
Last edited by SToronto; 10-20-2021 at 11:25 AM.
10-20-2021, 11:27 AM
#1461
Rennlist Member
Excellent point, I didn't give enough weight to your main issue of disclosure before I went on a rant. I've found this community to be rather "small" so it doesn't pay to omit something that will come up later. In the case of leaving out a very real and material issue with a car, and telling people the exact opposite that would and should get you in big trouble in a hurry.
Thanks for the correction.
Thanks for the correction.
Not sure I agree with your counter points in relation to what we're talking about. Your counter points are valid as separate points and issues as a car reseller, very real I am sure and then some.
Disclosure is what we're talking about. Do a thorough review of your own as a seller, disclose all items. In the example being discussed, the issues are blatantly obvious. Now as a seller, you may want to accept an accident car or repaint, whatever and be willing to resell it. Same concept applies, disclose all the issues. You will probably find a buyer for that car, this addresses one of your points above, there are folks with different requirements and expectations. This is where the issue is though, sellers trying to pass off a car with issues most would care about without disclosing. It's the maybe they won't notice approach and seller gets higher dollar.
When I say do a thorough review, maybe you don't do leak down and compression testing, that would be a step above and some sellers have those numbers. Which I personally would verify with my own tests.
Disclosure is what we're talking about. Do a thorough review of your own as a seller, disclose all items. In the example being discussed, the issues are blatantly obvious. Now as a seller, you may want to accept an accident car or repaint, whatever and be willing to resell it. Same concept applies, disclose all the issues. You will probably find a buyer for that car, this addresses one of your points above, there are folks with different requirements and expectations. This is where the issue is though, sellers trying to pass off a car with issues most would care about without disclosing. It's the maybe they won't notice approach and seller gets higher dollar.
When I say do a thorough review, maybe you don't do leak down and compression testing, that would be a step above and some sellers have those numbers. Which I personally would verify with my own tests.
10-20-2021, 12:15 PM
#1462
Rennlist Member
I just called regarding the Lamborghini dealer that had this 993 on Pcar marketplace as I am looking for a driver not a blue chip museum piece. The salesman Max told me a brief story regarding how the PO traded the 993 in for a vintage Jag. I asked what they were realistically expecting for this car now and he said around the 150k mark. So there it is for a car that has a "vague" past.
10-20-2021, 12:39 PM
#1463
They'll probably successfully sell that 993 C2S to an unknowing buyer unfortunately. Many buyers don't appreciate the importance of a thorough PPI, some don't even know what a PPI is.
10-20-2021, 12:45 PM
#1464
Instructor
back in my day, PPI (pay per internet) use was about $2 for 10 minutes
10-20-2021, 02:22 PM
#1465
They pulled the car, the auction has been withdrawn:
https://www.pcarmarket.com/auction/1...1-carrera-s-2/
PCAR's comment:
https://www.pcarmarket.com/auction/1...1-carrera-s-2/
PCAR's comment:
Message from PCARMARKET: Thank you all for your comments regarding this listing. As individuals that buy and sell cars in our personal lives, we agree with most of the comments. Our goal is to find the best way to remedy what has clearly become a challenging situation. Please be assured that sellers are held accountable and must adhere to strict ethical guidelines in order to list cars on this platform. We also understand that how we handle these challenges when they do arise is extremely important. We originally felt that since the car did not reach the adjusted reserve, we would allow the auction to continue (in light of the new information) to its scheduled conclusion, leaving the current bids in place. It is more than likely however, that some of the bids may have never happened if the information was accurate from the beginning. As a result, we will be withdrawing the auction.
We may allow the car to run a new 7 day auction which would allow bidders the time to perform a proper PPI at an independent shop.
Once again, thank you all for your comments. A true community has been created here. We greatly appreciate all of you.
We may allow the car to run a new 7 day auction which would allow bidders the time to perform a proper PPI at an independent shop.
Once again, thank you all for your comments. A true community has been created here. We greatly appreciate all of you.
Last edited by spinfree; 10-20-2021 at 02:24 PM.
10-20-2021, 02:58 PM
#1466
I am glad to see Pcar pulled the auction.
Not glad to see they selectively delete comments.
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696 (10-20-2021)
10-20-2021, 02:59 PM
#1467
Rennlist Member
Welp…. That didn’t take long 
10-20-2021, 03:05 PM
#1468
Guess they're starting to learn. Rare occurrence. I'll post my Pcar market story one of these days when I have nothing better to do. It's not worth the typing effort for the time being. The great community is RL that unearthed the issues on this particular example. Love it in here.
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10-20-2021, 03:23 PM
#1469
@E-Man can you expand on your experience?
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toona (10-21-2021)
10-20-2021, 04:10 PM
#1470
Rennlist Member
Well everyone, that was pretty impressive! Great detective work and enough of the right and honest pressure results in the correct outcome! This car is probably a good driver- and under full disclosure I am sure it will sell at some price- but you all saved someone from making a HUGE mistake! Again very impressive. Love this site.
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Das14444 (10-20-2021)