Porsche got it wrong I’ll explain
06-02-2024, 03:36 PM
#61
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Sounds like you are the guy who needs the enlightenment. Google EV sales and learn something. EV sales are not going in the positive direction. Many auto manufacturers are pissing away billions on the production, marketing, and sales of EVs. There is really no secret here at this point. 
While the rate of EV adoption in the U.S. has slowed, the overall size of the EV market is still growing.
And has been noted elsewhere in the press, the slowdown in the rate of EV sales in the U.S. is largely attributed to one brand, Tesla.
In fact, last year, EV sales in the U.S. market surpassed 1 million units for the first time, according to sales estimates by Kelley Blue Book.
But please, don't let facts, actual facts, get in the way of a good Internet beatdown.
06-02-2024, 04:13 PM
#62
^^^^^^^Are all those collums, numbers, totals...... EVs only or EVs and PHEVs?
I'm out on the roads everyday and can't remember the last time I saw a Taycan outside of the ones lined up and looking for a home at our local Porsche dealers.
I'll bet these Taycans are the cats *** for "Bay Area" types but are not at all popular here.
I'm out on the roads everyday and can't remember the last time I saw a Taycan outside of the ones lined up and looking for a home at our local Porsche dealers.
I'll bet these Taycans are the cats *** for "Bay Area" types but are not at all popular here.
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06-02-2024, 04:41 PM
#63
Drifting
Well remember regarding the EV adoption rate - its all about the law of small numbers. It's very easy to show large percentage gains against a small baseline number of unit sales.
The real turning point with EVs is going to come when the western nations decide whether they want to allow the size of their auto producers, to be dramatically cut. Consumers don't want EVs if given a straight choice - however, the middle class also can't afford most of the new cars being produced. Give them low cost Chinese EVs, and you'll see the adoption rate takeoff. They may not want an EV, but when they can get one for $15000, they'll take it. That's going to decimate the bottom end of sales for the established players. Makers like Porsche will be fine because they cater to high wealth people. The choice for the West is whether their climate change embrace and EV push, is more important than their auto industries, and whether they are willing to cede a huge part of it to China to fulfill the green agenda.
The real turning point with EVs is going to come when the western nations decide whether they want to allow the size of their auto producers, to be dramatically cut. Consumers don't want EVs if given a straight choice - however, the middle class also can't afford most of the new cars being produced. Give them low cost Chinese EVs, and you'll see the adoption rate takeoff. They may not want an EV, but when they can get one for $15000, they'll take it. That's going to decimate the bottom end of sales for the established players. Makers like Porsche will be fine because they cater to high wealth people. The choice for the West is whether their climate change embrace and EV push, is more important than their auto industries, and whether they are willing to cede a huge part of it to China to fulfill the green agenda.
Last edited by nyca; 06-02-2024 at 06:58 PM.
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06-02-2024, 04:53 PM
#64
Rennlist Member
Please get your facts straight.
While the rate of EV adoption in the U.S. has slowed, the overall size of the EV market is still growing.
And has been noted elsewhere in the press, the slowdown in the rate of EV sales in the U.S. is largely attributed to one brand, Tesla.
In fact, last year, EV sales in the U.S. market surpassed 1 million units for the first time, according to sales estimates by Kelley Blue Book.
But please, don't let facts, actual facts, get in the way of a good Internet beatdown.
While the rate of EV adoption in the U.S. has slowed, the overall size of the EV market is still growing.
And has been noted elsewhere in the press, the slowdown in the rate of EV sales in the U.S. is largely attributed to one brand, Tesla.
In fact, last year, EV sales in the U.S. market surpassed 1 million units for the first time, according to sales estimates by Kelley Blue Book.
But please, don't let facts, actual facts, get in the way of a good Internet beatdown.
06-02-2024, 05:16 PM
#65
Rennlist Member
That said, The purpose of a sports car is emotion and pure driving pleasure. EVs are not great at that, but they are great at many things. My daily for the past 5 years has been a Tesla model 3 performance. I'm now at 110,000 miles. It is so quick and nimble. It is so easy and practical. Every night I take 5 seconds to plug it in, and its fueled and ready in the morning. Very reliable and I haven't had to do any maintenance besides change both the tires and the brake pads once over 5 years and 110,000 miles. Very easy and economical while also being very fast and practical.
My weekend fun car for the same past 5 years has been a 991.2 GT3. I did ED with the GT3 and tracked her on the Ring. My GT3 is loud, visceral, emotional, and I love driving her on the track and in the mountains. She is completely different from the M3P, but I enjoy the cars in different ways.
A daily driver can and should be a very different car from your "fun" weekend sports card, the problem is when companies they try to blend two perfect tools for different purposes into one universal tool that is mediocre for all purposes. And that is what Porsche is doing more and more but not succeeding any longer. A 911 for decades was supposed be an emotional yet fairly practical car. It has been popular for decades because it is the rare car that blends both well. At some point however, it becomes too clinical and non emotional, and is now mostly just practical.
At that point, you might as well just drive a 4 door sports sedan, which has a wider range of uses, such as an AMG C43 or M340i, or the blasphemy of a daily EV!
Everyone has their cutoff point. For some it was water cooled, some it was losing hydraulic steering, for me it was going turbo. I owned a 991.2 C2S for two months before I sold it as it was too clinical compared with previous NA 911 models, and so I ordered my third GT3 car, my current 991.2 GT3. I'm sure many on this forum would disagree with the turbo clinical statement, which is fine.
But I think all of us on this thread find it quite lamentable that the new Porsche carrera now has a purely digital screen, no longer has the Le mans key left of the steering column, and is now a hybrid. A hybrid GTS better serves the purpose of meeting liberal environmental regulations, but it is far worse for its original purpose of being an emotional sports car that you could track on the weekend and then drive to work during the week. And it is downright insulting that Porsche feels they can charge us so much more for cars that are far less emotional and/or fun to drive.
My weekend fun car for the same past 5 years has been a 991.2 GT3. I did ED with the GT3 and tracked her on the Ring. My GT3 is loud, visceral, emotional, and I love driving her on the track and in the mountains. She is completely different from the M3P, but I enjoy the cars in different ways.
A daily driver can and should be a very different car from your "fun" weekend sports card, the problem is when companies they try to blend two perfect tools for different purposes into one universal tool that is mediocre for all purposes. And that is what Porsche is doing more and more but not succeeding any longer. A 911 for decades was supposed be an emotional yet fairly practical car. It has been popular for decades because it is the rare car that blends both well. At some point however, it becomes too clinical and non emotional, and is now mostly just practical.
At that point, you might as well just drive a 4 door sports sedan, which has a wider range of uses, such as an AMG C43 or M340i, or the blasphemy of a daily EV!
Everyone has their cutoff point. For some it was water cooled, some it was losing hydraulic steering, for me it was going turbo. I owned a 991.2 C2S for two months before I sold it as it was too clinical compared with previous NA 911 models, and so I ordered my third GT3 car, my current 991.2 GT3. I'm sure many on this forum would disagree with the turbo clinical statement, which is fine.
But I think all of us on this thread find it quite lamentable that the new Porsche carrera now has a purely digital screen, no longer has the Le mans key left of the steering column, and is now a hybrid. A hybrid GTS better serves the purpose of meeting liberal environmental regulations, but it is far worse for its original purpose of being an emotional sports car that you could track on the weekend and then drive to work during the week. And it is downright insulting that Porsche feels they can charge us so much more for cars that are far less emotional and/or fun to drive.
Last edited by Drifting; 06-02-2024 at 07:28 PM.
The following 5 users liked this post by Drifting:
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06-02-2024, 05:49 PM
#67
That said, The purpose of a sports car is emotion and pure driving pleasure. EVs are not great at that, but they are great at many things. My daily for the past 5 years has been a Tesla model 3 performance. I'm now at 110,000 miles. It is so quick and nimble. It is so easy and practical. Every night I take 5 seconds to plug it in, and its fueled ready in the morning. Very reliable and I haven't had to do any maintenance besides change both the tires and the brake pads once over 5 years and 110,000 miles. Very easy and economical while also being very fast and practical.
My weekend fun car for the same past 5 years has been a 991.2 GT3. I did ED with the GT3 and tracked her on the Ring. My GT3 is loud, visceral, emotional, and I love driving her on the track and in the mountains. She is completely different from the M3P, but I enjoy the cars in different ways.
A daily driver can and should be a very different car from your "fun" weekend sports card, the problem is when companies they try to blend two perfect tools for different purposes into one universal tool that is mediocre for all purposes. And that is what Porsche is doing more and more but not succeeding any longer. A 911 for decades was supposed be an emotional yet fairly practical car. It has been popular for decades because it is the rare car that blends both well. At some point however, it becomes too clinical and non emotional, and is now mostly just practical.
At that point, you might as well just drive a 4 door sports sedan, which has a wider range of uses, such as an AMG or M car, or the blasphemy of a daily EV!
Everyone has their cutoff point. For some it was water cooled, some it was losing hydraulic steering, for me it was going turbo. I owned a 991.2 C2S for two months before I sold it as it was too clinical compared with previous NA 911 models, and so I ordered my third GT3 car, my current 991.2 GT3. I'm sure many on this forum would disagree with the turbo clinical statement, which is fine.
But I think all of us on this thread find it quite lamentable that the new Porsche carrera now has a purely digital screen, no longer has the Le mans key left of the steering column, and is now a hybrid. A hybrid GTS better serves the purpose of meeting liberal environmental regulations, but it is far worse for its original purpose of being an emotional sports car that you could track on the weekend and then drive to work during the week. And it is downright insulting that Porsche feels they can charge us so much more for cars that are far less emotional and/or fun to drive.
My weekend fun car for the same past 5 years has been a 991.2 GT3. I did ED with the GT3 and tracked her on the Ring. My GT3 is loud, visceral, emotional, and I love driving her on the track and in the mountains. She is completely different from the M3P, but I enjoy the cars in different ways.
A daily driver can and should be a very different car from your "fun" weekend sports card, the problem is when companies they try to blend two perfect tools for different purposes into one universal tool that is mediocre for all purposes. And that is what Porsche is doing more and more but not succeeding any longer. A 911 for decades was supposed be an emotional yet fairly practical car. It has been popular for decades because it is the rare car that blends both well. At some point however, it becomes too clinical and non emotional, and is now mostly just practical.
At that point, you might as well just drive a 4 door sports sedan, which has a wider range of uses, such as an AMG or M car, or the blasphemy of a daily EV!
Everyone has their cutoff point. For some it was water cooled, some it was losing hydraulic steering, for me it was going turbo. I owned a 991.2 C2S for two months before I sold it as it was too clinical compared with previous NA 911 models, and so I ordered my third GT3 car, my current 991.2 GT3. I'm sure many on this forum would disagree with the turbo clinical statement, which is fine.
But I think all of us on this thread find it quite lamentable that the new Porsche carrera now has a purely digital screen, no longer has the Le mans key left of the steering column, and is now a hybrid. A hybrid GTS better serves the purpose of meeting liberal environmental regulations, but it is far worse for its original purpose of being an emotional sports car that you could track on the weekend and then drive to work during the week. And it is downright insulting that Porsche feels they can charge us so much more for cars that are far less emotional and/or fun to drive.
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Drifting (06-02-2024)
06-02-2024, 05:50 PM
#68
06-02-2024, 05:52 PM
#69
So you’re claiming that in the U.S. the 911 buyer is the same market as the Hyundai family hatchback buyer and they are looking for the same things in a car as regards practicality and driving experience.
What a totally ridiculous take that is. That’s about the stupidest, most patently false thing I’ve ever read on this forum. Ha ha. Incredible.
What a totally ridiculous take that is. That’s about the stupidest, most patently false thing I’ve ever read on this forum. Ha ha. Incredible.
06-02-2024, 05:54 PM
#70
Well remember regarding the EV adoption rate - its all about the law of small numbers. It's very each to show large percentage gains against a small baseline number of unit sales.
The real turning point with EVs is going to come when the western nations decide whether they want to allow the size of their auto producers, to be dramatically cut. Consumers don't want EVs if given a straight choice - however, the middle class also can't afford most of the new cars being produced. Give them low cost Chinese EVs, and you'll see the adoption rate takeoff. They may not want an EV, but when they can get one for $15000, they'll take it. That's going to decimate the bottom end of sales for the established players. Makers like Porsche will be fine because they cater to high wealth people. The choice for the West is whether their climate change embrace and EV push, is more important than their auto industries, and whether they are willing to cede a huge part of it to China to fulfill the green agenda.
The real turning point with EVs is going to come when the western nations decide whether they want to allow the size of their auto producers, to be dramatically cut. Consumers don't want EVs if given a straight choice - however, the middle class also can't afford most of the new cars being produced. Give them low cost Chinese EVs, and you'll see the adoption rate takeoff. They may not want an EV, but when they can get one for $15000, they'll take it. That's going to decimate the bottom end of sales for the established players. Makers like Porsche will be fine because they cater to high wealth people. The choice for the West is whether their climate change embrace and EV push, is more important than their auto industries, and whether they are willing to cede a huge part of it to China to fulfill the green agenda.
Throw away Chinese electric cars, what a wonderfull world that will be! We bop on down to the local Walmart(Yuk), grab a 29 dollar DVD player, a dose of the Wu Flu, a pound of Vacu-Pak Bologna, and a new car.
Last edited by Hunky; 06-02-2024 at 05:57 PM.
06-02-2024, 06:51 PM
#71
Instructor
To be honest, I think the interest in cars has been waning for years for the general public. Less and less “car people” around. I am
actually ok with the masses driving souless electric cars because they drive souless gasoline/hybrid cars now. I agree Porsche for the 911 should stick with catering to the enthusiast as the 911 as the best all around sports car may not be as relevant going forward.
actually ok with the masses driving souless electric cars because they drive souless gasoline/hybrid cars now. I agree Porsche for the 911 should stick with catering to the enthusiast as the 911 as the best all around sports car may not be as relevant going forward.
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06-02-2024, 07:01 PM
#73
Drifting
That's true, I have two young men in their early 20s in my family - they have licenses, but neither of them have cars. The young generation is going to drive less, and therefore fewer overall cars are going to be sold. Auto insurance is almost unattainable now for young people. The current auto industry is going to shrink going forward.
06-02-2024, 07:22 PM
#74
Well remember regarding the EV adoption rate - its all about the law of small numbers. It's very easy to show large percentage gains against a small baseline number of unit sales.
The real turning point with EVs is going to come when the western nations decide whether they want to allow the size of their auto producers, to be dramatically cut. Consumers don't want EVs if given a straight choice - however, the middle class also can't afford most of the new cars being produced. Give them low cost Chinese EVs, and you'll see the adoption rate takeoff. They may not want an EV, but when they can get one for $15000, they'll take it. That's going to decimate the bottom end of sales for the established players. Makers like Porsche will be fine because they cater to high wealth people. The choice for the West is whether their climate change embrace and EV push, is more important than their auto industries, and whether they are willing to cede a huge part of it to China to fulfill the green agenda.
The real turning point with EVs is going to come when the western nations decide whether they want to allow the size of their auto producers, to be dramatically cut. Consumers don't want EVs if given a straight choice - however, the middle class also can't afford most of the new cars being produced. Give them low cost Chinese EVs, and you'll see the adoption rate takeoff. They may not want an EV, but when they can get one for $15000, they'll take it. That's going to decimate the bottom end of sales for the established players. Makers like Porsche will be fine because they cater to high wealth people. The choice for the West is whether their climate change embrace and EV push, is more important than their auto industries, and whether they are willing to cede a huge part of it to China to fulfill the green agenda.
Hell, wander into any adm thread to see just how price sensitive even a bunch of so called purist drivers with baller wallets are. Is X your dream car ? Oh, but you won’t buy it because the market price is $20k more than you expected? Let’s be honest. It’s not won’t. It’s can’t.
“Green agenda”. Lolz. I didn’t have “watching Florida sink into the ocean before California” on my bingo card, but here we are. People are so worried about the resale values of taycan they don’t own and maybe should be a little more concerned about whether anyone buying houses in their neighborhood can get insurance…
06-02-2024, 07:26 PM
#75
To be honest, I think the interest in cars has been waning for years for the general public. Less and less “car people” around. I am
actually ok with the masses driving souless electric cars because they drive souless gasoline/hybrid cars now. I agree Porsche for the 911 should stick with catering to the enthusiast as the 911 as the best all around sports car may not be as relevant going forward.
actually ok with the masses driving souless electric cars because they drive souless gasoline/hybrid cars now. I agree Porsche for the 911 should stick with catering to the enthusiast as the 911 as the best all around sports car may not be as relevant going forward.
The part people refuse to acknowledge is the miracle of capitalism. Porsche is going to raise prices on those enthusiasts models. Obviously. Because the market will accept it.
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Ikone (06-03-2024)