992.2 April 2024 Release
12-21-2022, 03:44 PM
#136
Rennlist Member
I bet they will keep the legacy 3.0T mated to the manual, and whatever new 6800 rpm engine will be for the high output cars. I don't think you will be able to switch between hybrid/non hybrid at the same trim level. Someone earlier said Base/T will get manual and S/GTS/Turbo are all PDK hybrid. That makes sense to me
12-22-2022, 02:56 PM
#137
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
911 getting closer to the panamera. For instance (from the same source for the current generations)Targa 4S weights at 3898 lbs / 1768 Kg, Panamera 4 4405 lbs / 1998 Kg and 911 Coupe Turbo S at 3975 lbs / 1803 Kg. I know it's the worst case for the 911, but in the past the gap was much wider. Without a lot of exotic materials, the lightness of the 911 will be gone with batteries and so called "sophistication" perhaps restricted to the unobtanium versions (GT). I drove the Artura, which uses a formula that should be quite common for sports cars in the current time and near future - small battery, sandwiched electric motor. The car is an absolute blast to drive. Very much in the GT/track day territory. But it's a CF monocoque tube weighing just below 1500 kg, which I really don't see carreras having it. The 992 already uses a lot of aluminum compared to the 991.
That's the vendor trying to appease the consumer base. People wants jack of all trades, but they tend to be master of none. I used my 991 to go to work, take kids to school, Costco run and track days (4 of us went to the track in the car when the kids were younger, plus 2 small dogs - short trip of course). The 992 did all better except the track duties. There is no escaping weight, no matter how much suspension trickery is done (Taycan tires sing beautifully as the computers do their magic). Not entering the way the high end 911 prices are encroaching certain Ferraris and McLarens.
The 718 4.0 drives closer to the 911s of yore, which is not surprising given how much they "share" (lingo for lazy engineering). I got a Spyder just leaving the 992 (deceased engine - resurrected and for sale) and it's so fun to drive that I hooked up some winter tires to keep on going. The GTS is pretty much the same experience. The Panamera 4S that replaced my 992 drives very much like the latter, which is a compliment to the 971 and depending on your point of view, to the 992.
That's the vendor trying to appease the consumer base. People wants jack of all trades, but they tend to be master of none. I used my 991 to go to work, take kids to school, Costco run and track days (4 of us went to the track in the car when the kids were younger, plus 2 small dogs - short trip of course). The 992 did all better except the track duties. There is no escaping weight, no matter how much suspension trickery is done (Taycan tires sing beautifully as the computers do their magic). Not entering the way the high end 911 prices are encroaching certain Ferraris and McLarens.
The 718 4.0 drives closer to the 911s of yore, which is not surprising given how much they "share" (lingo for lazy engineering). I got a Spyder just leaving the 992 (deceased engine - resurrected and for sale) and it's so fun to drive that I hooked up some winter tires to keep on going. The GTS is pretty much the same experience. The Panamera 4S that replaced my 992 drives very much like the latter, which is a compliment to the 971 and depending on your point of view, to the 992.
12-22-2022, 03:34 PM
#138
911 getting closer to the panamera. For instance (from the same source for the current generations)Targa 4S weights at 3898 lbs / 1768 Kg, Panamera 4 4405 lbs / 1998 Kg and 911 Coupe Turbo S at 3975 lbs / 1803 Kg. I know it's the worst case for the 911, but in the past the gap was much wider. Without a lot of exotic materials, the lightness of the 911 will be gone with batteries and so called "sophistication" perhaps restricted to the unobtanium versions (GT). I drove the Artura, which uses a formula that should be quite common for sports cars in the current time and near future - small battery, sandwiched electric motor. The car is an absolute blast to drive. Very much in the GT/track day territory. But it's a CF monocoque tube weighing just below 1500 kg, which I really don't see carreras having it. The 992 already uses a lot of aluminum compared to the 991. That's the vendor trying to appease the consumer base. People wants jack of all trades, but they tend to be master of none. I used my 991 to go to work, take kids to school, Costco run and track days (4 of us went to the track in the car when the kids were younger, plus 2 small dogs - short trip of course). The 992 did all better except the track duties. There is no escaping weight, no matter how much suspension trickery is done (Taycan tires sing beautifully as the computers do their magic). Not entering the way the high end 911 prices are encroaching certain Ferraris and McLarens. The 718 4.0 drives closer to the 911s of yore, which is not surprising given how much they "share" (lingo for lazy engineering). I got a Spyder just leaving the 992 (deceased engine - resurrected and for sale) and it's so fun to drive that I hooked up some winter tires to keep on going. The GTS is pretty much the same experience. The Panamera 4S that replaced my 992 drives very much like the latter, which is a compliment to the 971 and depending on your point of view, to the 992.
The following users liked this post:
johny221 (12-22-2022)
12-22-2022, 04:18 PM
#139
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I have a 2022 Panamera Turbo S, and I just got my 2023 C4 GTS (just drove home from the Detailer) so I don't have a lot of seat time nor have I got the car entirely sorted out yet. But so far, the Panamera is much more comfortable than the GTS. Of course, it could simply be a case of just being used to the Panamera and how it feels. I'm looking forward to getting more GTS drive time and through the break-in period so I can really get a good comparison. I never expected the GTS to ride as comfortably as the Panamera but I get your point.
The following users liked this post:
Smirnoff67 (12-22-2022)
12-22-2022, 04:45 PM
#140
The 992 GTS is different from the 991 when compared to the S models. I drove the GTS on track, it's much closer to the 991 GT3 when it comes to steering feel. Over the years, it would be the first time I would be tempted to get one of those, if it were not for the price range overlapping other interesting options, albeit out of my reach for non-monetary reasons. My 992 experience was with tracking and daily driving the C4S cab. At the time of purchase, it was the porkier of them all (only one available when I wanted it - one marshmallow strategy). If the engine didn't go to the trash bin, I might have kept it and the Spyder. I went with 2 cars doing opposite jobs instead of one. Not practical or sensible in any form, but neither are sports cars and children.
12-22-2022, 05:07 PM
#141
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
The following users liked this post:
Smirnoff67 (12-22-2022)
12-22-2022, 05:36 PM
#142
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
The following users liked this post:
Smirnoff67 (12-22-2022)
12-22-2022, 07:56 PM
#143
Three Wheelin'
That is a 13% weight difference using the heaviest Non-Turbo version. And compared to a base at 3354 lbs, it is more than a 31% weight difference. I am not sure I call that "close". And the difference between a 2018 911 base (3175 lbs) and a 2018 Panamera (4001 lbs) is only 25%. So, its not really getting closer to a Panamera either.
Last edited by Drew46; 12-22-2022 at 07:59 PM.
12-23-2022, 10:05 AM
#144
So, if we add a hybrid system to a base 992/PDK @ 3354lbs., what does everyone think the associated weight increase will be?
12-23-2022, 10:31 AM
#145
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Edit: "For instance, the Artura’s electric motor is about the size of a disc brake rotor, and it weighs just 34 pounds. Yet it adds 94 horsepower and 166 lb-ft of torque to the 3.0-liter twin-turbocharged V6, for a grand total of 671 horsepower and 530 lb-ft of torque. The motor is powered by a 7.4-kWh battery that weighs just 194 pounds and is mounted under the fuel tank." https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/202...explained.html
I'm using the Artura as reference bc it's an actual sports car, but it's likely a best case scenario. I don't think VW will spend that much.
Last edited by John Mclane; 12-23-2022 at 10:34 AM.
12-23-2022, 11:55 AM
#146
Rennlist Member
Been looking at the Panameras to replace an X5M that we have had for over 2 years and don't have much need for the large cargo space. Checked out a 2022 Panamera Turbo recently and damn is that a cool car that checks the majority of boxes. This could be a very easy alternative to a 992 at this point. Probably will be a tough call for you between the two which is certainly a nice pair to own indeed. 
The following users liked this post:
Smirnoff67 (12-23-2022)
12-23-2022, 02:17 PM
#147
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Panamera on its last generation cycle. The Taycan is its natural successor.
As to the Panamera being a substitute for the 911?
If anyone believes that to be the case, I need a bit of whatever you are smoking. Cuz, that is some powerful stuff.
As to the Panamera being a substitute for the 911?
If anyone believes that to be the case, I need a bit of whatever you are smoking. Cuz, that is some powerful stuff.
12-23-2022, 03:06 PM
#148
Sorry, but the Panamera isn't on it last legs. Just read an article yesterday that the Panamera is going to be built along with the 2nd Generation Taycan as an all-electric in 2027; with the Taycan being the speed-demon and the Panamera being more luxurious to compete with the Mercedes EQS and Lucid Air. https://www.carvibz.com/news/2024-porsche-panamera-looks-ready-for-production/ And don't be mistaken, the Panamera Turbo S is a speed and handling monster. It did the Nurburgring in 7:29. Trust me, it scoots. And because it is such a fantastic car, I talked myself out of the more powerful/extreme 911 Turbo S because I don't track my cars, and thought there's a good chance that if I was in a 911 Turbo S on the streets I might end up in jail or lose my drivers license. It's incredible how these cars hide their speed and I can be going 110mph and it certainly doesn't feel like it. So I talked it over with my SA, and read everything I could find, and settled on the C4 GTS because it has almost the identical power to weight ratio as the Panamera Turbo S. So far so good, but I've got a long way to go before I get past the break-in miles and can really find out. Maybe one day if Porsche doesn't make the 911 Turbo S a hybrid, and prices go back to normal, I'll switch to that; because I'd be lying if a part of me isn't regretting not buying the 911 Turbo S (at least until I think about the sky-high ADM's) but we'll see how it plays out.Not saying by any stretch that the Panamera is in any way better than the 911. Just trying to convey that the Panamera Turbo S at least is an extremely comfortable, very fast car that handles infinitely better than any other sedan I've driven and is no slouch. Can't speak to the other trims because I've never driven them.https://www.carvibz.com/news/2024-porsche-panamera-looks-ready-for-production/
Last edited by Smirnoff67; 12-23-2022 at 03:10 PM.
12-23-2022, 03:10 PM
#149
I can't recall with certainty, I believe the Artura system weights about 300lbs.
Edit: "For instance, the Artura’s electric motor is about the size of a disc brake rotor, and it weighs just 34 pounds. Yet it adds 94 horsepower and 166 lb-ft of torque to the 3.0-liter twin-turbocharged V6, for a grand total of 671 horsepower and 530 lb-ft of torque. The motor is powered by a 7.4-kWh battery that weighs just 194 pounds and is mounted under the fuel tank." https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/202...explained.html
I'm using the Artura as reference bc it's an actual sports car, but it's likely a best case scenario. I don't think VW will spend that much.
Edit: "For instance, the Artura’s electric motor is about the size of a disc brake rotor, and it weighs just 34 pounds. Yet it adds 94 horsepower and 166 lb-ft of torque to the 3.0-liter twin-turbocharged V6, for a grand total of 671 horsepower and 530 lb-ft of torque. The motor is powered by a 7.4-kWh battery that weighs just 194 pounds and is mounted under the fuel tank." https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/202...explained.html
I'm using the Artura as reference bc it's an actual sports car, but it's likely a best case scenario. I don't think VW will spend that much.
12-23-2022, 03:22 PM
#150
I agree. My concern is adding the weight of a complete hybrid system to one of the heavier 992 platforms (Targa 4S) is pushing the 992 closer to the Panamera weight class and handling characteristics. You can compensate for the acceleration loss from added hybrid weight by the added HP from the electric motor. But, the added weight from the hybrid system also compromises the 992 handling and driving dynamics which is more difficult to compensate for as the 992 is intentionally lightened already. The handling of the Taycan or Panamera, though good for their size and class, cannot come close to that of the lighter 992s IMHO.