Originally Posted by neoprufrok

As much as we don't like to admit it, valuation of brands is based on popularity and desirability. While awesome driving cars is one of the factors that weigh into that equation - it's certainly not the only one. Ferrari's brand is super popular and desirable. When you want to buy a sweet driving Ferrari you're competing against the true enthusiasts (which is a smaller number) and the people who just want to own a Ferrari and, for the hard-to-get cars, the Ferrari that someone told them is hard to get and may increase in value. Porsche certainly has some of that. But I know for a fact that people didn't look twice at my 991.2 Touring but every time they see my bright blue LT, they take pics and ooh and aah. In part, that's why I love 911s. There's a deep appreciation for the engineering.

I think while we argue and troll, most of us on rennlist deeply like the cars for their mechanical worth, not for the looks they get or how popular the brand is. I experience this to the extreme with my real NSX-R - only the real enthusiasts (and even then, the real JDM enthusiasts) understand that they are looking at only 1 of 10 or so NSX-Rs in the country when they see my car in person.

Originally Posted by Manifold

and Porsche has historically been good in that regard, though as they move towards producing more higher-priced limited edition cars, they move away from that aspect of the engineering ethos.

Originally Posted by PTS

So building a car like the S/T (which you're clearly targeting) where Porsche dumps a ton of R&D, time and money into things like a brand new clutch/flywheel assembly, which is tech that is disappearing daily from the world, is them moving away from that ethos? That's just one of many examples that come to mind to rebut that claim that is completely off, imo. You're not of a fan of 992 GT cars, or manuals, that is quite obvious

Originally Posted by cosmos

I’ll add this.

AP doesn’t lie, he’s a car guy and an engineer.

I know for an absolute fact that he put the head of GT suspension on the ST team and they spent one full year revising the ST suspension alone. Now, can I say that maybe this was needed because they removed the RWS and perhaps that was the reason, maybe, but nevertheless they spend one year just working on the suspension for this car.

Originally Posted by Manifold

How many manhours and dollars is that ‘one full year’?

Revenue from selling 1963 of these cars will be more than $600 million, profit likely more than $100 million. If they invested 1% of the revenue to develop the car, that's about $6 million, which sounds like more than enough, yet just a small fraction of the profit. I doubt that R&D cost was much of a factor in the decision of whether to build this car.

Originally Posted by ipse dixit

Um, do you even read what you type?

Of course R&D was a factor, and probably a significant one.

And when you surmise that PAG will see "profit likely more than $100 million" how do you know PAG wouldn't have profited 3x times that if they had invested the same amount of R&D as they did in the S/T in another volume car like the Macan, Cayenne, or even a "regular" 911.

GT cars, be they special editions or otherwise, are not profit makers for PAG (at least not on paper).

Originally Posted by Manifold

Word is that profit margin is extra high on the GT cars and TT/S. I recall you yourself saying that at some point?

Originally Posted by ipse dixit

nope, said the exact opposite, at least for GT cars, lowest profit margins in the 911 lineup

Originally Posted by ipse dixit

nope, said the exact opposite, at least for GT cars, lowest profit margins in the 911 lineup

Originally Posted by Manifold

How many manhours and dollars is that ‘one full year’?

Revenue from selling 1963 of these cars will be more than $600 million, profit likely more than $100 million. If they invested 1% of the revenue to develop the car, that's about $6 million, which sounds like more than enough, yet just a small fraction of the profit. I doubt that R&D cost was much of a factor in the decision of whether to build this car.

Originally Posted by ipse dixit

Um, do you even read what you type?

Of course R&D was a factor, and probably a significant one.

And when you surmise that PAG will see "profit likely more than $100 million" how do you know PAG wouldn't have profited 3x times that if they had invested the same amount of R&D as they did in the S/T in another volume car like the Macan, Cayenne, or even a "regular" 911.

GT cars, be they special editions or otherwise, are not profit makers for PAG (at least not on paper).

Originally Posted by rodsky

There is no way on the planet that GT cars are not profit makers. If they make 15,000 992's in various forms (GT3's, GT3RS, S/T and so forth), that's a $4B revenue business. I'd be willing to bet they make some profit on that . Yes, they are "halo" cars and add to the brand and they make more absoulute profi on higher volume SUVs and Taycans etc., but they still make a lot of money here. I would hazard a guess that Turbo's are some of their highest margin vehicles at close to the $275K a pop.