When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
In a lot of turbo cars, it is a problem.
Not in a $200K 911 TT, but in lesser Turbo cars lag is quite an issue.
It is expected that Porsche wont have that much issue with it but PDK will be a big part of how they minimize lag.
One, it is ridiculous to think that Porsche will build a car that will have an issue with merging... . And second, millions of cars with tiny turbo engines merge into traffic on the Autobahn with no problems every day. I feel like I'm having this discussion in 1980. In general modern turbos (even small) produce enough torque that they make better daily drivers than high-reving NA motors who produce power on top (used on the track) - e92 M3, GT3, etc... So yes, even a little turbo engine in a BMW one series is quite capable, so I'm gonna go ahead and assume that Porsche will build a turbo engine for a 911 or the models that is safe to merge with. LOL!
One, it is ridiculous to think that Porsche will build a car that will have an issue with merging... . And second, millions of cars with tiny turbo engines merge into traffic on the Autobahn with no problems every day. I feel like I'm having this discussion in 1980. In general modern turbos (even small) produce enough torque that they make better daily drivers than high-reving NA motors who produce power on top (used on the track) - e92 M3, GT3, etc... So yes, even a little turbo engine in a BMW one series is quite capable, so I'm gonna go ahead and assume that Porsche will build a turbo engine for a 911 or the models that is safe to merge with. LOL!
All true, except you don't have to go back quite as far as 1980 -- ALL 930s had terrible power delivery and, combined with a 4-speed box that would do something like 55 in first, merging (or squirting into an opening on the highway) was really much better done in a contemporary SC or 3.2 Carrera than in a Turbo. Keeping one on boil demanded never leaving 2nd gear around town -- seriously. I wound up never buying a 930 because of that -- every time I drove one I wound up coming away disappointed in it as a daily driver because it seemed so much slower in the daily grind than the Carrera did.
Of course, that was minimized a bit in the 964T, more in the 993TT, and really a lot in 996TT. But even still, while merging and squirting are not a problem at all in my current X50 996TT, the power delivery is quite a bit different than a 991S.
All true, except you don't have to go back quite as far as 1980 -- ALL 930s had terrible power delivery and, combined with a 4-speed box that would do something like 55 in first, merging (or squirting into an opening on the highway) was really much better done in a contemporary SC or 3.2 Carrera than in a Turbo. Keeping one on boil demanded never leaving 2nd gear around town -- seriously. I wound up never buying a 930 because of that -- every time I drove one I wound up coming away disappointed in it as a daily driver because it seemed so much slower in the daily grind than the Carrera did. Of course, that was minimized a bit in the 964T, more in the 993TT, and really a lot in 996TT. But even still, while merging and squirting are not a problem at all in my current X50 996TT, the power delivery is quite a bit different than a 991S.
Sure, but this all is a non-issue in 2015. Throttle response is borderline immediate in the TT, and totally acceptable in smaller non-porsche turbo cars. And again, because that was the point, anything Porsche will build in regards to the 911 and a turbo engine will make merging into traffic quite manageable.
Sure, but this all is a non-issue in 2015. Throttle response is borderline immediate in the TT, and totally acceptable in smaller non-porsche turbo cars. And again, because that was the point, anything Porsche will build in regards to the 911 and a turbo engine will make merging into traffic quite manageable.
This merging into traffic subject is ridiculous. I know you're only dispelling the quote.
This coming from a NA fan and big critic of turboization!
I'd be more worried about high revs and engine/exhaust sound to whoever is worried about traffic.
This merging into traffic subject is ridiculous. I know you're only dispelling the quote. This coming from a NA fan and big critic of turboization! I'd be more worried about high revs and engine/exhaust sound to whoever is worried about traffic.
Yup, no question. My 991S sounded glorious! The turbo is an underwhelming 'meh'... def need an aftermarket exhaust to hear at least the turbos spool. But yes NA > turbo in the sound department. Hands down.
I love all the teeth gnashing over the new engines. The sky is surely falling.
That new Ferrari sounds muted vs a 458.
Your two statements don't align. The sarcasm in the first one indicates you think people are wrong to care about the switch from NA to turbo, but then you admit in the second one that the preeminent sportscar house in the land, with a much larger MSRP to play with, isn't able to make their car sound as good as it used to.
So in essence, for anyone who appreciates the bark and rasp of a 991's exhaust, the sky actually may be falling.
And to that end, I'll say that, with an 80% higher MSRP than the Carrera S, the 911 Turbo S doesn't manage to sound nearly as good. I bring in the price only to say that they are able to throw mucho dollars at the problem and still haven't solved it. I currently drive a 911TT, and I've thrown dollars at an aftermarket exhaust trying to replicate my neighbors' cool sounding 997 and Panamera GTS, and theirs still sound much better.
Not the most important element of car ownership in the world, but in one sense, the only one I get to enjoy while still inside the gates of my neighborhood.
Interesting discussions here, especially the 'merging' part .
On other forums thread, some 991's being traded for Macan and 'hoping' to get the same dynamics in handling.
Your two statements don't align. The sarcasm in the first one indicates you think people are wrong to care about the switch from NA to turbo, but then you admit in the second one that the preeminent sportscar house in the land, with a much larger MSRP to play with, isn't able to make their car sound as good as it used to.
So in essence, for anyone who appreciates the bark and rasp of a 991's exhaust, the sky actually may be falling.
And to that end, I'll say that, with an 80% higher MSRP than the Carrera S, the 911 Turbo S doesn't manage to sound nearly as good. I bring in the price only to say that they are able to throw mucho dollars at the problem and still haven't solved it. I currently drive a 911TT, and I've thrown dollars at an aftermarket exhaust trying to replicate my neighbors' cool sounding 997 and Panamera GTS, and theirs still sound much better.
Not the most important element of car ownership in the world, but in one sense, the only one I get to enjoy while still inside the gates of my neighborhood.
If the bitching was just about sound, fine.
But it's a government conspiracy, you won't be able to drive them as well on the track (even though the lap times will be lower), it will be unsafe for merging due to lag ...this is what's amusing.
Turbo motors are fine for sedans and SUV's. They sound ****ty and if part of the sports car experience is the sound, then I agree it's a bad direction to go. One of the many reasons I parted with the GT-R was the complete lack of a gratifying soundtrack.
But it's a government conspiracy, you won't be able to drive them as well on the track (even though the lap times will be lower), it will be unsafe for merging due to lag ...this is what's amusing.
Turbo motors are fine for sedans and SUV's. They sound ****ty and if part of the sports car experience is the sound, then I agree it's a bad direction to go. One of the many reasons I parted with the GT-R was the complete lack of a gratifying soundtrack.
For me, the bitching (not on here but in my own head) is about two things: soundtrack, and quick revability. I love the couple hundred more foot-pounds of torque of the turbo, but a quick stab of the throttle in neutral doesn't give that lightweight-flywheel sound of revving. Just one of the things I love about sportscars, and a reason I'm ordering a GTS next week when I get back in town.
I was blessed to go out to Sweden last week with Porsche for a little ice driving. Walter Röhrl was there giving rides in his 991 Turbo S down a tight but flowing single track snow rally course. He's an absolute master, everything they claim and more. Perhaps predictably the question of Turbo vs NA came up while we were driving in a way I thought was relevant to this thread.
First the drive itself: Walter was miles ahead of the course and car. The steering wheel was relatively quiet- much of the time it was entirely still as he casually balanced it with one hand, relatively little input and few large corrections required. Most of the steering was done with the throttle.
The car was preset far before the corner, and he was clearly thinking 3 corners ahead. He'd use left foot brake and throttle to initiate a slide 50 meters or more before the corner, put it into a mild drift, control the line with the throttle, then smoothly link that drift to the next one in a way that was almost slow motion and never jerky or violent. The car never actually hooked up.
There was never any understeer- he said that if he didn't provoke the drift before the corner then every 5th corner the car might get understeer. By setting the car into a four wheel drift before the corner he insured oversteer which he could control as opposed to understeer he could not, and from there he simply managed how much.
He said he clearly prefers normally aspirated for this application. The turbo's lack of throttle precision makes the car harder to place, because when he goes for the throttle he's never sure how much drift he'll get. I asked him how much less accurately he could place the car due to this- six inches, or 1 foot?
"I would say...." Walter thought for a moment, pregnant pause as he considered an answer before turning to face me fully, still at speed: "Two Feet". Awesome moment:
Given that we were drifting edge to edge as it was, that two feet would have meant we'd be kissing the snowbanks on every single corner. It already seemed close to perfection to me, no sense of drama or chasing the car and needing to catch it. Velvet smooth.
When we talk about turbo "lag" or throttle delay with the upcoming turbo cars it's at this level. If you're using the throttle to initiate and dial a drift then the lag or lower response from the newest generation of turbos is still an issue. For the way most of us drive 99.9% of the time, however, it's completely transparent and nearly irrelevant other than feel. Many newer turbo owners will tell you with a straight face that their cars "have no lag". And they fully believe this, because it's subtle enough that they won't notice as they use the car.
Even Walter says that his 991 Turbo S is awesome and his first choice on the street, comfortable with easy passing grunt and poise that makes it a weapon in the real world. However at the limit, in some conditions, something is lost. That day it was two feet. Exactly.
One last thought. It's been said before, but I can confirm: Walter Röhrl is unequivocally the man.
02-04-2015, 11:43 AM
Your two statements don't align. The sarcasm in the first one indicates you think people are wrong to care about the switch from NA to turbo, but then you admit in the second one that the preeminent sportscar house in the land, with a much larger MSRP to play with, isn't able to make their car sound as good as it used to. 
.
