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I thought I'd have a second go at expressing my thoughts and opinions from a younger perspective than that of a kid "whining and bitching". Hopefully it'll further the discussion further some.
First, I just want to say Petevb, your insight is simply brilliant and nothing short of amazing and informative on this topic that's got us riled up now.
The sound department is definitely a very integral part of Porsche and us enthusiasts that care about the wonderful sound of our halo engine. I think that the signature note of the engine is definitely threatened by being muffled by turbos and just the sound of turbo spooling in general. An aftermarket exhaust setup would normally be required to get more noise out of turbo cars, but what if that "exhaust" is standard with the addition of active baffles in said exhaust as before? And even if we don't have a good enough sounding exhaust on these new cars, we still have the aftermarket and custom fabrication to open them up!
And throttle lag is a touchy subject as well. I've experienced a 997 Turbo in the passenger seat, and the throttle lag, while evident, was a rather short period of time; I cannot remember exactly how short it was but it didn't bother me much, nor did it the owner when I inquired about it. My dad has told me about older vehicles and older 911 turbos in which the turbo lag could be described as waiting for an hourglass to finish. But the older turbo cars don't even compare to the newer ones in that respect. Even though throttle response might be slightly diminished(like EPS vs hydraulic), there must be a way for Porsche to retain an N/A-like throttle characteristics to differentiate it from the actual turbo, linear power delivery like Ferrari has done with the California T and presumably the 488? My daily driver is a Focus ST, and if you mash the go-pedal in that car, it takes at least 1.5 seconds for the turbo to spool up and lay down some torque, surely this car won't even be close to that kind of lag. Also, while it may not be so much as a hindrance on normal roads and driving, on a track, it may be a potential concern and I think that's what some of us may be worried about.
I've also noticed no one has actually discussed the topic of renaming? If all 911s are turbo, would they retain their current names or add "turbo" somewhere in the mix; like a throwback to the Turbo Carrera perhaps? 2016 Turbo Carrera 4S for example? Then with the original 911 turbo, perhaps it could be called the "911 TT"(Twin-Turbo)? Maybe they'll keep the names the way they are, but we won't know until the reveal I think.
It is a real shame that the Cayman and Boxster are being relegated to turbo-4s, it may distinguish them further from the 911, but now that the "affordable flat-6" is gone, some people, myself included, are bound to throw a fit about that. I've had a friend criticize the new turbo-4s as "overpriced Subaru coupes and convertibles", this is going to be interesting once they're out. But they're doing whatever it takes to keep the pride and joy 911 on top of the family tree. One thing I don't believe, is that with turbo-4s Porsche will lower the price on them, I just don't see that happening.
I'm wondering if these GTS cars are only going to be one-year cars or sold alongside the new ones for a while?
One more thing, there are two things that Hatz send in his interview that haven't left my mind:
1. "You can't afford to keep an engine for 10 years any more"
Longevity is an important thing for us is it not? Some of us have cars with engines decades old still going strong. What do you think he meant by this comment? I'm almost interpreting his comment as if modern engines have an expiration date.
2. "Then at the end of the decade electrification has to be the next huge step."
How will we react when this happens? A 911 hybrid potentially by the end of the decade, and only 5 years away.
When do we think we'll get our first glimpses of these cars anyway? Geneva? Maybe sometime in the summer perhaps, anyone have any guesses?
I've also found this relatively old video of the turbo-4 Cayman, but I think it's the best in terms of what we can actually hear:
I apologize if this was unorganized and tedious to read, it's almost 2AM and it's too late to have tea. This lack of sleep is making me think with an open mind.
Sounds....terrible. As for 'opening it up' with an aftermarket exhaust, it will sound like a WRX-STI with an aftermarket exhaust. If that's what you want.
One more thing, there are two things that Hatz send in his interview that haven't left my mind:
1. "You can't afford to keep an engine for 10 years any more"
Longevity is an important thing for us is it not? Some of us have cars with engines decades old still going strong. What do you think he meant by this comment? I'm almost interpreting his comment as if modern engines have an expiration date.
No, I think what he meant was that in the product development world, an engine [design] is only going to work for 10 years. The original air-cooled Porsche engine lasted for what, 60 years? And now we're at 17 years for the water cooled? Of course, the small-block Chevy pushrod engine is still going strong, although it's usually inserted in plastic POSs or oversized trucks (full of plastic). But I digress. The engineering life cycle is a lot shorter than it was in 1960.
2. "Then at the end of the decade electrification has to be the next huge step."
How will we react when this happens?
I test drove a Model S and loved it. Well... I loved driving it. Some other issues kept me from buying it. I would love an electric car that performed well and was as well designed, engineered and assembled as a Porsche.
Back to the turbo lag thing: I had a Buick Grand National back in the day. That thing had lag that you'd measure in weeks. Horrible. I've also had a few recent turbo-6 BMWs, and the lag was almost acceptable. Turbo engineering has come a long way.
I have a supercharged Audi A6 now, and it's got no lag. It's a rocket. Probably not as efficient as a turbo, but I still get very acceptable mileage for a large car.
"To give the driver a better feel for the engine, an exterior recording of the M5’s motor plays through the car’s stereo."
"VW’s broadcasts all the noise from under the hood through a dedicated speaker located near the engine’s throttle body. Soundaktor speakers are currently making noise in the GTI, GLI, and Beetle Turbo."
And yes, these are different than the 911 sound symposer hollow tube.
Sounds....terrible. As for 'opening it up' with an aftermarket exhaust, it will sound like a WRX-STI with an aftermarket exhaust. If that's what you want.
I was referring to the 911, not the Cayman.
Originally Posted by Dude174
Have you seen the thread on bimmerpost about coding your fake sound in your 228i (or it might have been m235i) to sound like an m3 or an m5? Crazy
We are going down the turbo road no matter we like it or not. For me personally it's a big let down. Even though I believe the cars will perform great. A Porsche for me is about the total package, that includes the feel of the shifter/clutch, steering, throttle response and most importantly the sound! All these things together puts a smile on my face when I take them out for a drive or take it to the track! So even if the turbo delivers better numbers it doesn't deliver the right feel for me!
We are going down the turbo road no matter we like it or not. For me personally it's a big let down. Even though I believe the cars will perform great. A Porsche for me is about the total package, that includes the feel of the shifter/clutch, steering, throttle response and most importantly the sound! All these things together puts a smile on my face when I take them out for a drive or take it to the track! So even if the turbo delivers better numbers it doesn't deliver the right feel for me!
Fortunately the GT cars will remain naturally aspirated for quite a while still from what Porsche has said.
I don't think the GTS would be included in that group, but who knows? GT3 looks like a great future car. For now, very happy with my 991S NA.
I've also noticed no one has actually discussed the topic of renaming? If all 911s are turbo, would they retain their current names or add "turbo" somewhere in the mix; like a throwback to the Turbo Carrera perhaps? 2016 Turbo Carrera 4S for example? Then with the original 911 turbo, perhaps it could be called the "911 TT"(Twin-Turbo)? Maybe they'll keep the names the way they are, but we won't know until the reveal I think.
This has been discussed here and elsewhere... take a look at the naming conventions for the Macan, Cayenne, Panamera. Most engines have turbos but only the top of the range models are called Turbo/Turbo S. Strongly suspect the 911 range will be the same.
Also highly unlikely Porsche undoes 40 years of history by naming every car a 911 Turbo... plus why would anyone pay $200k for a 911 Turbo is every 911 is a 911 Turbo?
This has been discussed here and elsewhere... take a look at the naming conventions for the Macan, Cayenne, Panamera. Most engines have turbos but only the top of the range models are called Turbo/Turbo S. Strongly suspect the 911 range will be the same. Also highly unlikely Porsche undoes 40 years of history by naming every car a 911 Turbo... plus why would anyone pay $200k for a 911 Turbo is every 911 is a 911 Turbo?
I was blessed to go out to Sweden last week with Porsche for a little ice driving. Walter Röhrl was there giving rides in his 991 Turbo S down a tight but flowing single track snow rally course. He's an absolute master, everything they claim and more. Perhaps predictably the question of Turbo vs NA came up while we were driving in a way I thought was relevant to this thread.
First the drive itself: Walter was miles ahead of the course and car. The steering wheel was relatively quiet- much of the time it was entirely still as he casually balanced it with one hand, relatively little input and few large corrections required. Most of the steering was done with the throttle.
The car was preset far before the corner, and he was clearly thinking 3 corners ahead. He'd use left foot brake and throttle to initiate a slide 50 meters or more before the corner, put it into a mild drift, control the line with the throttle, then smoothly link that drift to the next one in a way that was almost slow motion and never jerky or violent. The car never actually hooked up.
There was never any understeer- he said that if he didn't provoke the drift before the corner then every 5th corner the car might get understeer. By setting the car into a four wheel drift before the corner he insured oversteer which he could control as opposed to understeer he could not, and from there he simply managed how much.
He said he clearly prefers normally aspirated for this application. The turbo's lack of throttle precision makes the car harder to place, because when he goes for the throttle he's never sure how much drift he'll get. I asked him how much less accurately he could place the car due to this- six inches, or 1 foot?
"I would say...." Walter thought for a moment, pregnant pause as he considered an answer before turning to face me fully, still at speed: "Two Feet". Awesome moment:
Given that we were drifting edge to edge as it was, that two feet would have meant we'd be kissing the snowbanks on every single corner. It already seemed close to perfection to me, no sense of drama or chasing the car and needing to catch it. Velvet smooth.
When we talk about turbo "lag" or throttle delay with the upcoming turbo cars it's at this level. If you're using the throttle to initiate and dial a drift then the lag or lower response from the newest generation of turbos is still an issue. For the way most of us drive 99.9% of the time, however, it's completely transparent and nearly irrelevant other than feel. Many newer turbo owners will tell you with a straight face that their cars "have no lag". And they fully believe this, because it's subtle enough that they won't notice as they use the car.
Even Walter says that his 991 Turbo S is awesome and his first choice on the street, comfortable with easy passing grunt and poise that makes it a weapon in the real world. However at the limit, in some conditions, something is lost. That day it was two feet. Exactly.
One last thought. It's been said before, but I can confirm: Walter Röhrl is unequivocally the man.
02-10-2015 | 02:56 PM
