50th Anniversary sales stats/colour/PDK
10-26-2014, 03:24 PM
#151
Burning Brakes
Apologies Mondrian. I didn't mean to imply that you were indulging in wishful thinking. As I said, I just don't think the data supports it. Yes I have read the thread and I thank you for your hard work and insight.
http://www.stevinsonimports.com/Vehi...-CO/2375393703
Another data point for you above. A 2014 991-50 with 75 miles on it. If my calculations are correct, it's listed at 6% below MSRP. Since there's usually some wiggle room built in to a price, my guesstimate is that the car will sell for 15% - 20% below MSRP. I could of course be completely wrong. I also believe that it will be closer to 15% than it is to 20%.
I love these cars. For me, they are the nicest of the 991 variants.
http://www.stevinsonimports.com/Vehi...-CO/2375393703
Another data point for you above. A 2014 991-50 with 75 miles on it. If my calculations are correct, it's listed at 6% below MSRP. Since there's usually some wiggle room built in to a price, my guesstimate is that the car will sell for 15% - 20% below MSRP. I could of course be completely wrong. I also believe that it will be closer to 15% than it is to 20%.
I love these cars. For me, they are the nicest of the 991 variants.
10-26-2014, 03:51 PM
#152
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
No need to apologise, any data must hold up to scrutiny, but you need to spell out what data doesn't support what? All I have suggested is that these cars are a lot more popular and rare than some would suggest and therefore their depreciation will be much lower than a mass produced 991 - is this what you don't agree with?
10-26-2014, 04:57 PM
#153
Burning Brakes
The example car in my previous quote, is a data point that supports my opinion. The Belgiun car mentioned at Euro 135K would have to be very lightly optioned to be at or above MSRP as well. However, without seeing the option list it's impossible to say.
I do agree that in Europe and the U.K. the cars may depreciate at a slower rate. I'm still unsure about the U.S.
10-26-2014, 05:00 PM
#154
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I am talking potatoe and you are talking potato (Sinatra accent) - I did say (Europe) in brackets so obviously aware of my data reference point, are you?
10-26-2014, 05:21 PM
#155
Burning Brakes
You've lost me Mondrian. We're either talking past each other or I'm missing your point. All of the EBay examples prior to your statement were in the U.S. As far as I can see, there is either no data on selling price, or the asking price is below MSRP.
Are you now saying that your statement regarding 'used prices being at or above MSRP' only refers to Europe and the U.K. ? It seemed that you were being more general given the context that all of the examples above were in the U.S.
I'm Australian, so I speak both Potato and Potatoe. Love the Jensen by the way. A friend had one while I was at RMC. The sound of that motor was incredible.
Are you now saying that your statement regarding 'used prices being at or above MSRP' only refers to Europe and the U.K. ? It seemed that you were being more general given the context that all of the examples above were in the U.S.
I'm Australian, so I speak both Potato and Potatoe. Love the Jensen by the way. A friend had one while I was at RMC. The sound of that motor was incredible.
10-26-2014, 05:23 PM
#156
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Let me put it this way, go to Porsche GB site, used car locator, select 911 and tick the special edition box. http://www.porsche.com/uk/
You will get one 50th coming up in all of UK (third largest market for porsche) priced at £100k, new price was £92k + options and pretty sure that car would have been invoiced at or just below £100k when new. Now how much discount do you think they will give a potential buyer when they know they have the only used 50th in all of UK. It's been the same all year, the most I have seen at any one time was 2 cars. It was pretty much the same in other major European markets last time I checked.
You will get one 50th coming up in all of UK (third largest market for porsche) priced at £100k, new price was £92k + options and pretty sure that car would have been invoiced at or just below £100k when new. Now how much discount do you think they will give a potential buyer when they know they have the only used 50th in all of UK. It's been the same all year, the most I have seen at any one time was 2 cars. It was pretty much the same in other major European markets last time I checked.
10-26-2014, 05:33 PM
#157
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
You've lost me Mondrian. We're either talking past each other or I'm missing your point. All of the EBay examples prior to your statement were in the U.S. As far as I can see, there is either no data on selling price, or the asking price is below MSRP.
Are you now saying that your statement regarding 'used prices being at or above MSRP' only refers to Europe and the U.K. ? It seemed that you were being more general given the context that all of the examples above were in the U.S.
I'm Australian, so I speak both Potato and Potatoe. Love the Jensen by the way. A friend had one while I was at RMC. The sound of that motor was incredible.
Are you now saying that your statement regarding 'used prices being at or above MSRP' only refers to Europe and the U.K. ? It seemed that you were being more general given the context that all of the examples above were in the U.S.
I'm Australian, so I speak both Potato and Potatoe. Love the Jensen by the way. A friend had one while I was at RMC. The sound of that motor was incredible.
10-26-2014, 05:42 PM
#158
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
It's the same engine as Mach 1, the largest American engine at 440 ci (7.2 L) in an Italian design body build by the British in 70's. I used to have another transatlantic car too, Cobra ... Now that sounded very nice even though it was only a cleveland but with Aussie quench heads.
Last edited by Mondrian; 10-27-2014 at 02:13 AM.
10-26-2014, 06:00 PM
#159
Burning Brakes
Interesting. I agree.
Out of curiosity I searched for preowned 2014 C2S. There were only 14 in the entire country. The vast majority being Cabriolet. Absolutely bizarre, considering the weather. The market appears to be very different 'over there'.
Out of curiosity I searched for preowned 2014 C2S. There were only 14 in the entire country. The vast majority being Cabriolet. Absolutely bizarre, considering the weather. The market appears to be very different 'over there'.
10-26-2014, 09:51 PM
#160
Mondrian, everything is relative. I don't consider $10K a heavily optioned 911. My 911/50 came with the X-51 and my options STILL came to $37,825(Canadian dollars). The sky is the limit on these cars.
10-26-2014, 11:03 PM
#161
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
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Lifetime Rennlist
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Mondrain, I have been tracking the 50th prices since April. Everything I have seen mirrors your observations. Almost every EBAY, autotrader, DuPont , or private ad has been exactly at the MSRP in the US. I dont know what they settle for, but average have been ~1500 miles and priced at the MSRP which is usually around the high $130s in USD.
Which brings me to your heavily optioned comment. I tend to agree, the biggest MSRP I saw in the US was 147K USD, that had PCCBs and Burmiester. Take away the PCCBs (which are a highly personal choice and not needed) and you are in the high 130's. Which again is where I saw 90% of the USA 50ths. So if you ask what was a heavily optioned 50th going for, the price would be approximately high $130's
If you want to talk about a completely optioned out 50th, that would be like Bacuras. I guess it just depends on the context of the conversation.
Which brings me to your heavily optioned comment. I tend to agree, the biggest MSRP I saw in the US was 147K USD, that had PCCBs and Burmiester. Take away the PCCBs (which are a highly personal choice and not needed) and you are in the high 130's. Which again is where I saw 90% of the USA 50ths. So if you ask what was a heavily optioned 50th going for, the price would be approximately high $130's
If you want to talk about a completely optioned out 50th, that would be like Bacuras. I guess it just depends on the context of the conversation.
10-26-2014, 11:52 PM
#162
Mondrian,
You've mentioned this theory on multiple occasions and on multiple threads. I can understand why you'd like it to be true, and it may indeed be the case in the U.K. and Europe.
In the U.S, the advertised price for the car is absolutely no indication of what it is eventually sold for. Especially when preowned. The EBay 'buy now' price is generally 15% to 20% above the price that the seller is willing to allow. Nor do we know what price the car was sold for, if it was sold. On another thread (I don't have time to find it) is another 991- 50 that's being sold preowned. It's not advertised at MSRP (I believe) and the car has less than 100 miles on it.
I agree that these are special cars. In fact, I hope that it will be my next 991. However, I do not think that there's enough data for prices in the U.S. to support your claims of appreciation or MSRP.
Cheers,
B.
You've mentioned this theory on multiple occasions and on multiple threads. I can understand why you'd like it to be true, and it may indeed be the case in the U.K. and Europe.
In the U.S, the advertised price for the car is absolutely no indication of what it is eventually sold for. Especially when preowned. The EBay 'buy now' price is generally 15% to 20% above the price that the seller is willing to allow. Nor do we know what price the car was sold for, if it was sold. On another thread (I don't have time to find it) is another 991- 50 that's being sold preowned. It's not advertised at MSRP (I believe) and the car has less than 100 miles on it.
I agree that these are special cars. In fact, I hope that it will be my next 991. However, I do not think that there's enough data for prices in the U.S. to support your claims of appreciation or MSRP.
Cheers,
B.
If you read through the thread you will notice that I have consistently stated that the market for 50th in rest of the world has been stronger than US, which in my opinion was over supplied in quota - however it is a global village and eventually all markets fall in line so US will follow rest of the world even if it lags by a few months due to a slight over supply.
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
.
10-27-2014, 01:19 AM
#163
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Ok let's put it to test, what are 2013 (one year old) 991s priced at and what are 2013 (one year old) 50th priced at?
We did talk about porsche finance earlier in the thread. I am willing to make a wager that Porsche finance have got it wrong with 50th, no way is the 50th going to depreciate at same rate as 991s. They got the quota wrong, GT3 wrong .... But hey they don't need to get everything right as long as they get it right overall (the company) - even then they have had a historical failure of sorts (vs VW). However I do agree that there might be a "limited" window of opportunity for the savvy buyer - have you checked recent prices for other porsche Jubi models in good condition (25th - 30th) and they didn't even have wide body RWD or retro appeal!
As for US will follow - last month a 73S Targa sold for £195k ($310k) at an Auction in UK, £80k above its bottom estimate. As you know Targa's are usually priced below their coupe brothers in the classic 911 scene so this was a very interesting sale in that Targa is now priced pretty much on par with coupe (for classics) and I am pretty sure this will reflect on US prices too (unless its the crystal blue variety), if it hasn't already. It doesn't mean that US cars will now price match but pretty sure they will follow the trend. How you like them apples now Eduardo?
Options - I agree difference is in the eye of the beholder, I was basing my assumption on the average optioned car. Sky is the limit with these cars specially if you read Eduardo's thread and down the PTS & interior trim leather options. The car in question had a nice touch, 18 way seats with leather backing which on top of a very healthy options list made it a stand out car in my eyes.
We did talk about porsche finance earlier in the thread. I am willing to make a wager that Porsche finance have got it wrong with 50th, no way is the 50th going to depreciate at same rate as 991s. They got the quota wrong, GT3 wrong .... But hey they don't need to get everything right as long as they get it right overall (the company) - even then they have had a historical failure of sorts (vs VW). However I do agree that there might be a "limited" window of opportunity for the savvy buyer - have you checked recent prices for other porsche Jubi models in good condition (25th - 30th) and they didn't even have wide body RWD or retro appeal!
As for US will follow - last month a 73S Targa sold for £195k ($310k) at an Auction in UK, £80k above its bottom estimate. As you know Targa's are usually priced below their coupe brothers in the classic 911 scene so this was a very interesting sale in that Targa is now priced pretty much on par with coupe (for classics) and I am pretty sure this will reflect on US prices too (unless its the crystal blue variety), if it hasn't already. It doesn't mean that US cars will now price match but pretty sure they will follow the trend. How you like them apples now Eduardo?
Options - I agree difference is in the eye of the beholder, I was basing my assumption on the average optioned car. Sky is the limit with these cars specially if you read Eduardo's thread and down the PTS & interior trim leather options. The car in question had a nice touch, 18 way seats with leather backing which on top of a very healthy options list made it a stand out car in my eyes.
10-27-2014, 02:11 AM
#164
...so this was a very interesting sale in that Targa is now priced pretty much on par with coupe (for classics) and I am pretty sure this will reflect on US prices too (unless its the crystal blue variety), if it hasn't already. It doesn't mean that US cars will now price match but pretty sure they will follow the trend. How you like them apples now Eduardo?
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
.
10-27-2014, 02:35 AM
#165
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
The best apples, in my experience, have always been the special order color 'brands'. Among these the 'Crystal Blue' is a standout! And I am glad to see the 'Targa' variety becoming increasingly popular with consumers. Frankly, I was an early adopter...back in 1973 when I tasted my first Porsche! They were (& still are) positively juicy & delicious! I am glad 'collectors' are reaching the same conclusion now...some 40 years later!
Eduardo
Eduardo
Good things will come to those who are willing to wait.