No More Manual Gear Box for The 911?
11-19-2013, 07:50 PM
#346
Maybe this Andreas Preuninger interview excerpt explains a few things...some may not like the answers, but at least it offers some rationale...
On the new dual-clutch PDK gearbox…
'I’ve being doing this job for 12 years, I made the first GT3, and everybody knows I’m a very puristic driver. I want the car to be analogue, I want maximum driver involvement. That’s why we chose not to use a PDK ‘box until now – the involvement was not at the point where it should be for the GT3. The weight was another issue, too. So this time, for the first time, we decided to try out the PDK gearbox in parallel with the manual, and really feel what the difference was like. And feel is very important, for customers and myself – a very, very fast car where you don’t have any sensations isn’t worth the money. And coming from the other side we are under pressure from the competition, so I won’t sacrifice any performance just because someone wants to shift with a manual.
'The PDK gearbox is about 30kg heavier than the manual in the 997, and we have saved 25kg from the engine, so I said we should try it. The ‘box itself isn’t from the Carrera: there’s seven driving gears, not six plus overdrive, so you reach the top speed in seventh, And the programmes and hardware are totally different. The upshifts are beyond comparison on the market – less than 100ms – and it’s so much fun to use it: the sensation you get when you drive the car is like having a sequential race gearbox, not a flappy paddle system.
'We added a ‘Hooligan mode’ so you can do donuts in the car. Or, let’s say you have a 2nd gear curve, it’s wet, there’s nobody around and you wanted to drift. How do you do that in the manual? You dip the clutch and press the throttle to get the car around. That’s not possible in a normal automatic, but it is in the GT3: if you pull both paddles it engages neutral so you can 'clutch kick' the GT3. Same for race starts – you can dial up more wheelspin than the computer will give you. This was a major programme with the gearbox development to ensure you could play around with the PDK.'
On when the manual gearbox was ruled out…
'We ruled out the manual gearbox in back to-back comparisons last summer. On every shift with the PDK is more emotional, because for the first time when you shift at 9000rpm there’s a bham! in the exhaust, and this gives you goosebumps. It blips the throttle on the downshifts, and on a road you don’t know you can go very fast with both hands on the wheel. And on a race track the PDK gains three-quarters of a car length with every shift, so after a long straight you’re ahead of the other car and can turn-in in front of him. It just works. This is the big news.
'There’s no chance of a manual. We don’t want to offer too many options on our GT cars. And if you’ve got a manual and a PDK you’ve got to have different set-ups for the suspension, the aero, the tyres, everything. We are a small team and can only concentrate on one car.'
On the new dual-clutch PDK gearbox…
'I’ve being doing this job for 12 years, I made the first GT3, and everybody knows I’m a very puristic driver. I want the car to be analogue, I want maximum driver involvement. That’s why we chose not to use a PDK ‘box until now – the involvement was not at the point where it should be for the GT3. The weight was another issue, too. So this time, for the first time, we decided to try out the PDK gearbox in parallel with the manual, and really feel what the difference was like. And feel is very important, for customers and myself – a very, very fast car where you don’t have any sensations isn’t worth the money. And coming from the other side we are under pressure from the competition, so I won’t sacrifice any performance just because someone wants to shift with a manual.
'The PDK gearbox is about 30kg heavier than the manual in the 997, and we have saved 25kg from the engine, so I said we should try it. The ‘box itself isn’t from the Carrera: there’s seven driving gears, not six plus overdrive, so you reach the top speed in seventh, And the programmes and hardware are totally different. The upshifts are beyond comparison on the market – less than 100ms – and it’s so much fun to use it: the sensation you get when you drive the car is like having a sequential race gearbox, not a flappy paddle system.
'We added a ‘Hooligan mode’ so you can do donuts in the car. Or, let’s say you have a 2nd gear curve, it’s wet, there’s nobody around and you wanted to drift. How do you do that in the manual? You dip the clutch and press the throttle to get the car around. That’s not possible in a normal automatic, but it is in the GT3: if you pull both paddles it engages neutral so you can 'clutch kick' the GT3. Same for race starts – you can dial up more wheelspin than the computer will give you. This was a major programme with the gearbox development to ensure you could play around with the PDK.'
On when the manual gearbox was ruled out…
'We ruled out the manual gearbox in back to-back comparisons last summer. On every shift with the PDK is more emotional, because for the first time when you shift at 9000rpm there’s a bham! in the exhaust, and this gives you goosebumps. It blips the throttle on the downshifts, and on a road you don’t know you can go very fast with both hands on the wheel. And on a race track the PDK gains three-quarters of a car length with every shift, so after a long straight you’re ahead of the other car and can turn-in in front of him. It just works. This is the big news.
'There’s no chance of a manual. We don’t want to offer too many options on our GT cars. And if you’ve got a manual and a PDK you’ve got to have different set-ups for the suspension, the aero, the tyres, everything. We are a small team and can only concentrate on one car.'
11-19-2013, 08:49 PM
#347
ummmm.....odd response. PDK can't be driven leisurely as well like MT? When they make street racing legal on my street I'll get a 7 speed MT, drop the clutch and go crazy! This thread has reached a new low.
11-19-2013, 09:15 PM
#348
Being new to 911 ownership I appreciate Chuck's 101 comments on throttle and weight shifting. Most helpful in understanding the concept. That said, at least for me, the jury is still out on whether the PDK will be a good fit for maximizing my joy of driving for the type of driving I generally do. While I purchased the Turbo S, in terms of pure driving fun, I think I enjoyed the stick 997 GT3 even more. I am trying to embrace the "future". While many may feel this thread subject inane at this point, I can honestly say I am learning quite a bit from it.
Sal
Sal
11-19-2013, 09:38 PM
#349
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This is very good news for myself, an owner of a 7 speed MANUAL 991. That assures resale well into the future! For everyone else it is really sad to not have a manual option... No more clutch and stick - wow!
11-19-2013, 10:47 PM
#350
Being new to 911 ownership I appreciate Chuck's 101 comments on throttle and weight shifting. Most helpful in understanding the concept. That said, at least for me, the jury is still out on whether the PDK will be a good fit for maximizing my joy of driving for the type of driving I generally do. While I purchased the Turbo S, in terms of pure driving fun, I think I enjoyed the stick 997 GT3 even more. I am trying to embrace the "future". While many may feel this thread subject inane at this point, I can honestly say I am learning quite a bit from it.
Sal
Sal
Look at it this way. We are all used to braking being nice and smooth and continuous. Now try real hard and imagine brakes that were nice and smooth and continuous, but only when braking from 40 mph. If you try and brake from 70 mph the brakes work great until you get to 40 mph, at which point you have to stop braking and shift into the 40 to zero brake mode. And it gets worse, because there are three more braking modes above 70 mph! Now ask yourself, who in their right mind would want to drive such a mess of a car? But that is exactly what people are saying they love about manual shifting.
Now set aside the importance of being able to stop as fast as possible. Pretend both cars are somehow magically able to achieve equal braking distances. There would still be the problem of the shift/braking car introducing artificial gaps in what ought to be a smooth continuous process.
Or, imagine a car with steering that catches every 10 degrees.
All day long instructors tell students, smooth is fast. Why? Because smooth is fast. And better, even when you're not trying to be fast.
11-19-2013, 11:24 PM
#351
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The 991 has hundreds of options, so why wouldn't Porsche simply offer a manual transmission option just as they offer yellow brakes and myriad options? I can order a powerkit, limited slip, ceramic brakes, race seats, fire extinquisher, roll cage, air conditioned seats, heated seats, full leather.... but no manual trans? That's just weird! Some people really like manual, and the lack of OPTIONS may force some people to Corvette, Lotus, Lamborghini, and older Porsche's.
11-19-2013, 11:42 PM
#352
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Because to keep a MT takes a lot of engineering time every time the engine changes and it is not normally something they can charge for to offset that design time. All of the things you mention take little engineering time or are big ticket upgrades.
I don't know or care if Porsche will discontinue the MT but understand why they might.
I don't know or care if Porsche will discontinue the MT but understand why they might.
11-19-2013, 11:45 PM
#353
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The 991 has hundreds of options, so why wouldn't Porsche simply offer a manual transmission option just as they offer yellow brakes and myriad options? I can order a powerkit, limited slip, ceramic brakes, race seats, fire extinquisher, roll cage, air conditioned seats, heated seats, full leather.... but no manual trans? That's just weird! Some people really like manual, and the lack of OPTIONS may force some people to Corvette, Lotus, Lamborghini, and older Porsche's.
I've said it before and will (probably) say it again: Porsche's mission is to build the very best car they possibly can. That rules out manual transmissions in 2013.
11-20-2013, 12:29 AM
#354
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One of us should start an aftermarket Porsche transmission shop specializing in custom manual transmissions for new 991's! Make a fortune on people willing to spend $10k to convert their PDK to 7 speed manual!
11-20-2013, 12:58 AM
#355
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Also, so for the past 20+ years Porsche has been able to crank out automatics and manual cars, now all of a sudden they can only offer one transmission? Tiptronic and PDK have always been options. Why not keep the manual option. So be it inferior, as the tiptronics and PDK were until just recently... Just saying, options are good and you can charge customers $10k for the manual option. I for one would pay.
11-20-2013, 06:25 AM
#357
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Being new to 911 ownership I appreciate Chuck's 101 comments on throttle and weight shifting. Most helpful in understanding the concept. That said, at least for me, the jury is still out on whether the PDK will be a good fit for maximizing my joy of driving for the type of driving I generally do.
11-20-2013, 07:15 AM
#358
It sounds like the GT3 market and presumably the Turbo market are too small to justify the extra work, at least in Porsche's opinion.
I've said it before and will (probably) say it again: Porsche's mission is to build the very best car they possibly can.
If this were true, why would the Cayenne exist? If this were true, why wouldn't we have a 400+ HP Cayman? If this were true, why would they have built so many cars with the under-performing Tiptronic?
Here's my point - for decades, Porsche has been offering a second transmission option - Tiptronic - that clearly did not provide better performance, and certainly was not "the very best car they possibly could build". Why did they? Because there was a certain subset of the market that wanted to buy an automatic, regardless of the fact that it made the car slower. Why, then, is it suddenly such a bad idea to build a second transmission option for a certain subset of the market that wants to buy a manual, even if it makes the car slower?
11-20-2013, 09:05 AM
#359
Three Wheelin'
I wonder how many will put their money where their mouth is when it comes to effectively plunking down an extra 10k to downgrade from PDK to MT ?!
11-20-2013, 09:20 AM
#360
"And coming from the other side we are under pressure from the competition, so I won’t sacrifice any performance just because someone wants to shift with a manual."
The entire GT3 thing is about ultimate track performance with the icing of specific PDK changes made to try to give it some of the MT fun back. This quote is interesting in terms of their GT3 thought process, but irrelevant for daily driving experience. I'm not interested in getting a fast auto at the expense of my daily enjoyment.
If PDK doesn't lower someone's driving enjoyment, particularly when not being able to push the car to the 8 or 9/10ths that are often tossed out as proving that PDK is engaging as well, then more power to them. I don't mind someone else getting a PDK, I'm just in the "leave MT as an option" camp and don't think that competitive tracking justifies removing the option for everyone.