No More Manual Gear Box for The 911?
11-05-2013, 11:42 PM
#226
11-06-2013, 12:19 AM
#227
""I see the manual gearbox like a film camera. When digital first hit the scene, it was terrible. However, over time, digital got better and better and more and more people started switching. It got to a point where the pros and the stubborn were the only ones with film." Left unsaid is the fact that even the pros have moved on.""
I think the better photography analogy is between Leica rangefinder cameras and the autofocus SLR. Leica today still makes both film and digital M cameras, all of which use Leica lenses that are focused manually. Each of the Leica film and digital rangefinder cameras, in addition, are used by enthusiasts, (like myself) primarily in a mode whereby aperture and shutter speed are also determined manually. The reason is that there is just more creative control over the process and outcome. One is forced to learn about the process of photography because choices must be made by the shooter for each capture. This contrasts to the way in which most owners of SLR's rely on auto focus, and pretty much auto-everything. Yea, Leica rangefinders slows down the process and make you compose and think, but that is exactly the point!
[I do realize slowing down the process of driving is NOT the point, however, I hope you get my meaning.]
As someone contemplating (I am working on it - still reading PDDC posts!) the purchase of his first 911, I am just real glad Porsche still offers several MT versions of the 911 when so many other sports car manufacturers have moved on. I really hope they will continue to do so.
I think the better photography analogy is between Leica rangefinder cameras and the autofocus SLR. Leica today still makes both film and digital M cameras, all of which use Leica lenses that are focused manually. Each of the Leica film and digital rangefinder cameras, in addition, are used by enthusiasts, (like myself) primarily in a mode whereby aperture and shutter speed are also determined manually. The reason is that there is just more creative control over the process and outcome. One is forced to learn about the process of photography because choices must be made by the shooter for each capture. This contrasts to the way in which most owners of SLR's rely on auto focus, and pretty much auto-everything. Yea, Leica rangefinders slows down the process and make you compose and think, but that is exactly the point!
[I do realize slowing down the process of driving is NOT the point, however, I hope you get my meaning.]
As someone contemplating (I am working on it - still reading PDDC posts!) the purchase of his first 911, I am just real glad Porsche still offers several MT versions of the 911 when so many other sports car manufacturers have moved on. I really hope they will continue to do so.
11-06-2013, 12:37 AM
#228
Rennlist Member
This right here is why we got the cliche, "can't see the forest for the trees."
What, from time immemorial, has been one of the most keenly desired automotive traits? Is it not power? Power without hesitation? Power on demand? Is this not the reason Porsche developed Vario-cam? To broaden the power band, that full power be more readily available under a wider range of conditions? They didn't do this? Pretty sure they did. Only thing is, I don't remember any faction of Luddites rising up to lament the "more involving" single-lobe cam with its narrow peaky power curve.
Or fuel injection. Electronic ignition. A whole long line of technological innovations, every one of which has as its core objective the provision of more power, faster, under a wider range of conditions.
Now PDK. The salient feature of PDK is its ability to make all that power available to the driver, virtually instantly and with near-perfect flexibility of control. Period. Full stop.
Its the fricken Holy Grail of automotive design. Yet a few people can't stop talking about the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow.
What, from time immemorial, has been one of the most keenly desired automotive traits? Is it not power? Power without hesitation? Power on demand? Is this not the reason Porsche developed Vario-cam? To broaden the power band, that full power be more readily available under a wider range of conditions? They didn't do this? Pretty sure they did. Only thing is, I don't remember any faction of Luddites rising up to lament the "more involving" single-lobe cam with its narrow peaky power curve.
Or fuel injection. Electronic ignition. A whole long line of technological innovations, every one of which has as its core objective the provision of more power, faster, under a wider range of conditions.
Now PDK. The salient feature of PDK is its ability to make all that power available to the driver, virtually instantly and with near-perfect flexibility of control. Period. Full stop.
Its the fricken Holy Grail of automotive design. Yet a few people can't stop talking about the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow.
11-06-2013, 03:24 AM
#229
I really think you misread my post, or maybe I wasn't sufficiently clear. I wasn't talking about [I]additional[I] power. I was talking about the delivery of power. For as long as I'm aware all driving enthusiasts have highly prized and sought after immediate power delivery. We want snappy throttle response, and yes, fast shifting transmissions. With PDK, the transmission shifts so fast that when you want power, as fast as you can humanly press the pedal to the floor PDK will shift from whatever gear you are in, could even be 7th, to whatever gear you need for max acceleration, could even be 1st, so fast that by the time your foot gets there the shift is done and you are gone. From 7th to 1st in milliseconds. Now that's what I call involving! A car with MT, same situation, same need for immediate power right nowbut before you get it you have to A) depress clutch (body movement, loss of car connection, weight transfer upsets car balance), B) remove hand from steering wheel (body movement, loss of control and car connection), C) downshift (more unnecessary body movement), D) blip throttle, E) release clutch and accelerate (body movement, loss of car connection).
You are right though. The manual is not B-O-R-E-D. It is T-E-D-I-O-U-S and S-L-O-W causing you to M-I-S-S opportunities for F-U-N and appreciation of car B-A-L-A-N-C-E and H-A-N-D-L-I-N-G.
You are right though. The manual is not B-O-R-E-D. It is T-E-D-I-O-U-S and S-L-O-W causing you to M-I-S-S opportunities for F-U-N and appreciation of car B-A-L-A-N-C-E and H-A-N-D-L-I-N-G.
11-06-2013, 07:31 AM
#230
Three Wheelin'
I really think you misread my post, or maybe I wasn't sufficiently clear. I wasn't talking about [I]additional[I] power. I was talking about the delivery of power. For as long as I'm aware all driving enthusiasts have highly prized and sought after immediate power delivery. We want snappy throttle response, and yes, fast shifting transmissions. With PDK, the transmission shifts so fast that when you want power, as fast as you can humanly press the pedal to the floor PDK will shift from whatever gear you are in, could even be 7th, to whatever gear you need for max acceleration, could even be 1st, so fast that by the time your foot gets there the shift is done and you are gone. From 7th to 1st in milliseconds. Now that's what I call involving! A car with MT, same situation, same need for immediate power right nowbut before you get it you have to A) depress clutch (body movement, loss of car connection, weight transfer upsets car balance), B) remove hand from steering wheel (body movement, loss of control and car connection), C) downshift (more unnecessary body movement), D) blip throttle, E) release clutch and accelerate (body movement, loss of car connection).
You are right though. The manual is not B-O-R-E-D. It is T-E-D-I-O-U-S and S-L-O-W causing you to M-I-S-S opportunities for F-U-N and appreciation of car B-A-L-A-N-C-E and H-A-N-D-L-I-N-G.
You are right though. The manual is not B-O-R-E-D. It is T-E-D-I-O-U-S and S-L-O-W causing you to M-I-S-S opportunities for F-U-N and appreciation of car B-A-L-A-N-C-E and H-A-N-D-L-I-N-G.
11-06-2013, 08:28 AM
#231
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I really think you misread my post, or maybe I wasn't sufficiently clear. I wasn't talking about [I]additional[I] power. I was talking about the delivery of power. For as long as I'm aware all driving enthusiasts have highly prized and sought after immediate power delivery. We want snappy throttle response, and yes, fast shifting transmissions. With PDK, the transmission shifts so fast that when you want power, as fast as you can humanly press the pedal to the floor PDK will shift from whatever gear you are in, could even be 7th, to whatever gear you need for max acceleration, could even be 1st, so fast that by the time your foot gets there the shift is done and you are gone. From 7th to 1st in milliseconds. Now that's what I call involving! A car with MT, same situation, same need for immediate power right nowbut before you get it you have to A) depress clutch (body movement, loss of car connection, weigh
t transfer upsets car balance), B) remove hand from steering wheel (body movement, loss of control and car connection), C) downshift (more unnecessary body movement), D) blip throttle, E) release clutch and accelerate (body movement, loss of car connection).
You are right though. The manual is not B-O-R-E-D. It is T-E-D-I-O-U-S and S-L-O-W causing you to M-I-S-S opportunities for F-U-N and appreciation of car B-A-L-A-N-C-E and H-A-N-D-L-I-N-G.
t transfer upsets car balance), B) remove hand from steering wheel (body movement, loss of control and car connection), C) downshift (more unnecessary body movement), D) blip throttle, E) release clutch and accelerate (body movement, loss of car connection).
You are right though. The manual is not B-O-R-E-D. It is T-E-D-I-O-U-S and S-L-O-W causing you to M-I-S-S opportunities for F-U-N and appreciation of car B-A-L-A-N-C-E and H-A-N-D-L-I-N-G.
The only question that will be debated as this thread demonstrates is; At what point do these advancements continue to have technology eliminate the human requirement for certain knowledge and talent which have been the elements which people have traditionally derived the satisfaction and enjoyment of sport driving. If these advancements occur at a rate that exceeds the conventional wisdom, it becomes disruptive. Disruption always results in initial polarization. It will be interesting to see how Porsche deals with this.IMO.
11-06-2013, 10:01 AM
#232
This is just a rumor but I hear the astronauts on Apollo 13 actually flew that thing manually. I would be soooooooo bored if I was a shuttle pilot and had to let the computer fly that sucker. I'd also love to fly a P51 mustang.......just like the Black Sheep squadron or the Tuskegee airmen. Then I would climb into my computerized F16.......go mach 3.......and be bored?.......Not!
11-06-2013, 10:38 AM
#233
Three Wheelin'
It strikes me as odd. MT guys that call me a wannabe with too much money because I drive a PDK in my 991, allthough I'm proficient at double declutching and heeltoeing (and some of those MT guys probably aren't). I can turn the table on them, and look down on them because they don't master the double declutched heel toe !
11-06-2013, 11:06 AM
#234
But that knife cuts both ways. For instance, we have synchro mesh now in our MT gearbox. Why do the MT guys accept that progress in technology, but not the PDK ? Why is shifting yourself the holy grail, but why isn't double declutching an integral part of that ?
It strikes me as odd. MT guys that call me a wannabe with too much money because I drive a PDK in my 991, allthough I'm proficient at double declutching and heeltoeing (and some of those MT guys probably aren't). I can turn the table on them, and look down on them because they don't master the double declutched heel toe !
It strikes me as odd. MT guys that call me a wannabe with too much money because I drive a PDK in my 991, allthough I'm proficient at double declutching and heeltoeing (and some of those MT guys probably aren't). I can turn the table on them, and look down on them because they don't master the double declutched heel toe !
Racing schools teach it because it reduces the wear on their gearboxes; vintage drivers use it for the same reason.
11-06-2013, 11:11 AM
#235
Three Wheelin'
Double declutching is slow and unecessary. I don't know of any actual racing drivers who use it - myself included. If you know how to unload the driveline torque properly, there is no need to use the clutch at all when shifting a straight-cut dogring gearbox. It is much faster to shift without clutching; in fact, you MUST be fast and deliberate to avoid bouncing the dogrings off of the gears.
Racing schools teach it because it reduces the wear on their gearboxes; vintage drivers use it for the same reason.
Racing schools teach it because it reduces the wear on their gearboxes; vintage drivers use it for the same reason.
You can't advocate one edge of the knife and deny the other in this case ..
11-06-2013, 11:17 AM
#236
Have you ever driven a car with a dogring sequential? I think that if you had, you wouldn't be so enamored with PDK.....
11-06-2013, 11:25 AM
#237
Three Wheelin'
Would you want one in your street Porsche ?
11-06-2013, 11:36 AM
#238
Because you bring up double-declutching, which is only of use in a racing box, and only is used for preserving it, not going fast.
11-06-2013, 11:43 AM
#239
I really think you misread my post, or maybe I wasn't sufficiently clear. I wasn't talking about [I]additional[I] power. I was talking about the delivery of power. For as long as I'm aware all driving enthusiasts have highly prized and sought after immediate power delivery. We want snappy throttle response, and yes, fast shifting transmissions. With PDK, the transmission shifts so fast that when you want power, as fast as you can humanly press the pedal to the floor PDK will shift from whatever gear you are in, could even be 7th, to whatever gear you need for max acceleration, could even be 1st, so fast that by the time your foot gets there the shift is done and you are gone. From 7th to 1st in milliseconds. Now that's what I call involving! A car with MT, same situation, same need for immediate power right nowbut before you get it you have to A) depress clutch (body movement, loss of car connection, weight transfer upsets car balance), B) remove hand from steering wheel (body movement, loss of control and car connection), C) downshift (more unnecessary body movement), D) blip throttle, E) release clutch and accelerate (body movement, loss of car connection).
You are right though. The manual is not B-O-R-E-D. It is T-E-D-I-O-U-S and S-L-O-W causing you to M-I-S-S opportunities for F-U-N and appreciation of car B-A-L-A-N-C-E and H-A-N-D-L-I-N-G.
You are right though. The manual is not B-O-R-E-D. It is T-E-D-I-O-U-S and S-L-O-W causing you to M-I-S-S opportunities for F-U-N and appreciation of car B-A-L-A-N-C-E and H-A-N-D-L-I-N-G.
You had me at A).
11-06-2013, 12:13 PM
#240
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But that knife cuts both ways. For instance, we have synchro mesh now in our MT gearbox. Why do the MT guys accept that progress in technology, but not the PDK ? Why is shifting yourself the holy grail, but why isn't double declutching an integral part of that ?
It strikes me as odd. MT guys that call me a wannabe with too much money because I drive a PDK in my 991, allthough I'm proficient at double declutching and heeltoeing (and some of those MT guys probably aren't). I can turn the table on them, and look down on them because they don't master the double declutched heel toe !
It strikes me as odd. MT guys that call me a wannabe with too much money because I drive a PDK in my 991, allthough I'm proficient at double declutching and heeltoeing (and some of those MT guys probably aren't). I can turn the table on them, and look down on them because they don't master the double declutched heel toe !