ECU Tuning Questions (Detailed)
01-10-2021, 10:00 AM
#1
ECU Tuning Questions (Detailed)
I want to start by saying I recently purchased my first 911, I got a 991.2 Carrera 4 and while I am thrilled with the car, it seems that ~$1600 for an ECU tune gives a significant amount of improvement and allows me to take it back to factory easily. That being said $1600 isn’t worth much if I am chasing it in repair bills. I am interested in learning the below:
Thanks,
Chase
- Has anyone had any damage directly from an ECU tube, be it Cobb, Softronic, APR, or other? We all know there are inherent risks by installing anything other than factory but I’m mostly interested in understanding the risk factor. Some risks are greater than others and I'm hoping that the overall risks across multiple users are little to none. My generalized knowledge from ECU tunes across the board is that at least on the 991.2’s they increase turbo pressure and run the systems hotter than normal. Multiple forums on here have said ECU tweeks allow a ~15-20% gain in HP & torque.
- My understanding is that each of the ECU tuning applications (Cobb, Softronic, etc) are finding new capabilities of the ECU monthly and hence firmware updates. If this is the case why would anyone not choose the Cobb considering APR would need to go to a shop at an additional expense; I am not sure but it does not seem as if Softronic sends firmware updates but rather a one-time tune and charges $500 for modifications for each further instance. I guess the question on this one is do companies other than Cobb offer “firmware updates” being actual changes for the vehicle based on new R&D or are you stuck with what you have, short of paying again and, do other tuning applications let you know if a new development is implemented? Do any of you that have Cobb Protunes get updates as new developments are found (I'm assuming the same potential issue here)? I feel like these updates are important, however, they equally scare me in the sense, why would you release an ECU tune when you do not fully understand the ECU? I’m not bashing just thinking from the standpoint of staying safe while squeezing out potential.
- I’ve researched mostly Cobb, APR, and Softronic and while I will not get caught up in who’s best, I do wish a shop that sold multiple of these vendors would do a fair and even test (same dyno, same fuel type & weight, same everything, different ECU solutions) that way we could see quality comparable numbers across the board that aren’t accidentally or purposefully bias. I feel like shops selling this must have tried this to know what product/s to sell to their customers. I get this isn’t the only factor, so it would be great to hear from some shops as to why they choose their solution. I get some players have been in the industry a long time and others not as long but this also begs the question, how long is enough time to feel confident in a company? I genuinely want to know the answers to this; Softronic seems to have the edge in experience time with Porsche but Cobb has been around quite a while, APR less but maybe enough to feel confident in them?
- I have been split between the Softronic and the Cobb. My Indy shop says both are good, however, they usually trust Softronic’s experience (hence question 3). This is where I may need clarification but it appears that Softronic is a semi-custom tune that takes the model-specific into consideration, any performance enhancements, octane, customer requests (pops and burps, maybe stock in normal, tune in sport mode); I am not sure if Softronic takes altitude, tires, ethanol-free, etc into consideration or not. However, Softronic on my 991.2 claims a 115 HP increase, which is a 31% increase; I’m not refuting it I’m just saying that’s a big number for ECU tune only, but I will say if it’s going to be dramatic it will be on a twin-turbo vehicle. I don't believe Softronic tune is VIN specific though rather model specific (not taking logs from the vehicle itself). Cobb OTS (over the shelf) maps seem to be a one size fits all based on what I can only assume to be generalized tuning that is assumed to be fine with basic upgrades and all altitudes. I view this as similar to stock had to make something generalized without the semi-custom. I would guess that Cobb is only reporting ~55 HP increase because it’s a one size fits all, even though I would suspect a ProTune to be similar or greater to Softronic because of the actual use of the logs and/or dyno for VIN specific vehicle.
- I happen to have the PDK and don’t know if I would be missing out or not by leaving this on the table with Softronic. Anyway, you look at it Cobb has the advantage here on this particular item, especially since you can buy the main unit and upgrade later for the same difference in price when you need to scratch that itch again. I’ve seen some post that say it’s a ripoff too because there, aren’t? Weren’t? any OTS maps available for the PDK, can anyone confirm if this is still true?
- Value-wise $1600 for Softronic vs. $1695 for Cobb leaves both neck and neck. Based on my research I would say that Softronic provides a more custom tune than the Cobb OTS, however, SpeedCircuit that is a Rennlist member is advertising they will provide a free Protune if you purchase the Cobb unit from them. This puts me in the same rut as question 3, it appears that SpeedCircuit has been around long enough to know what they are doing with the Cobb but the question here are they experienced enough with Porsche to write custom tunes? SpeedCircuit claims to have invested a lot of time into their metrics for custom tunes, however, hasn’t everyone that does custom tunes? At first glance, it looks like from SpeedCircuit's Facebook page they just got into Porsche in the fall of 2020. So where I need an opinion here is do they deserve trust in regards to a Cobb Protune for a $100+k vehicle? If the answer is yes then they are probably a better value than Softronic if no then the question becomes is the Cobb with OTS maps a better ECU solution than Softronic?
- I’m not getting too hung up on the fact that Softronic doesn’t have a 30-day guarantee like Cobb does because it looks as if Softronic put time into each tune where Cobb has nothing to lose short of an open box. However, it is something if I find everything else to balance out that might tip the scales.
- A couple of additional questions that I haven’t been able to find the answers to: for those of us without the Sport Chrono package, would an ECU solution allow for Sport Plus? I like to do my changes one thing at a time and would like the people's opinion is an ECU tune worth it and which is more valuable an ECU tune or a PASM controller (DSC) - seems like ECU and PASM are the best upgrades for your buck. Diverter valves and air filter are about the only thing else I would consider adding, no headers, exhausts, etc.
- With any of the tunes it seems logical to think that you might need these or similar diverter valves installed to avoid leaks under higher turbo pressure (https://flat6motorsports.com/collect...-991-2-carrera), can anyone comment on this, please? Nothing like this is mentioned on any of the ECU tuning pages, but seems logical.
- I have read through about everything I can find on these tunes and have seen some manufacture bias in comments and who can blame them as it’s their job to answer questions and to sell and maintain a high perception of their products. If a manufacturer decides to comment, please make sure you only speak to your specific platform unless you have 100% current and definitive answers to another product.
- Contributors, I very much appreciate your feedback and if possible it would be great to know what solution you choose, why you choose it (even if it’s just the shop recommended it), perceived gains vs quoted gains (do your gains feel comparable to the gains that were promised?), any modified equipment and/or variables that might make your car different then stock, how many miles and months you have had your tune, and if any damage has occurred, etc.
- I can promise that I am not affiliated with any of these companies and not looking to put anyone down or create drama here, but my research has led me to the conclusions above, this does not mean by any means that I am an expert, I am just aggregating the data I have collected. If any of my claims above are untrue please let me know as it would be useful to me as well as other readers.
Thanks,
Chase
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Popular Reply
01-24-2021, 04:19 PM
To the OP... thanks for sharing all your data... you've put lots of information in one place here.
Now, gently, I have to say you are seriously perseverating on this. I mean way, way overboard. I can sometimes do this too so I believe I recognize when someone else is doing it. And this thread could be put in the dictionary as an example, brother.
Any ecu tune is going to come with some degree of risk. You're never going to be satisfied unless you accept that every company's solution comes with risk. I am no expert but I would also say that the solutions offered by established businesses that have been tuning Porsches for years are going to be more alike than not. There are differences but you seem to be thinking that there is some silver bullet you can discover that will magically slay the werewolf. Nope, for the most part they all do the same thing. If you can except the risk of modding at all.... then just choose someone who has considerable experience with 911s, has a good track record and is easy to work with. All the detail is twisting you into a knot with little value added for it.
And lastly, about your interactions with companies in this thread. I get that you want all your questions answered. But a company that is busy probably won't want to pick through page after page of detail to find hidden questions from one potential customer who is in an endless loop of comparitive perseveration, lol. Softronix probably gave up on you because they started a dialogue then you kept digging into different other companies and looking at state filing details! I run a business and I can tell you at some point it isn't worth the hassle unless the customer is going to be a large source of business.
I hope in the end you get what you want for your car. But I hope you don't develop high blood pressure while doing it.
Now, gently, I have to say you are seriously perseverating on this. I mean way, way overboard. I can sometimes do this too so I believe I recognize when someone else is doing it. And this thread could be put in the dictionary as an example, brother.
Any ecu tune is going to come with some degree of risk. You're never going to be satisfied unless you accept that every company's solution comes with risk. I am no expert but I would also say that the solutions offered by established businesses that have been tuning Porsches for years are going to be more alike than not. There are differences but you seem to be thinking that there is some silver bullet you can discover that will magically slay the werewolf. Nope, for the most part they all do the same thing. If you can except the risk of modding at all.... then just choose someone who has considerable experience with 911s, has a good track record and is easy to work with. All the detail is twisting you into a knot with little value added for it.
And lastly, about your interactions with companies in this thread. I get that you want all your questions answered. But a company that is busy probably won't want to pick through page after page of detail to find hidden questions from one potential customer who is in an endless loop of comparitive perseveration, lol. Softronix probably gave up on you because they started a dialogue then you kept digging into different other companies and looking at state filing details! I run a business and I can tell you at some point it isn't worth the hassle unless the customer is going to be a large source of business.
I hope in the end you get what you want for your car. But I hope you don't develop high blood pressure while doing it.
01-11-2021, 11:46 AM
#3
Sounds you already made up your mind on Cobb + protune, but are suffering from FOMO. Invest, test, iterate and find out what you need and want while using and enjoying the car.
Personally I'll wait APR to release their home tuning solution so that I can swap between 98RON and E85, but that's me.
Good luck, happy travels and welcome to the wonderful world of modifying your car which is never going to be finished
I've been at this for well over a decade with many different platforms. Best option is, if is is a possibility for you, to build one car to one specific need. Having one to do it all is always going to be a compromise, but sometimes that is completely fine and dandy as well.
Personally I'll wait APR to release their home tuning solution so that I can swap between 98RON and E85, but that's me.
Good luck, happy travels and welcome to the wonderful world of modifying your car which is never going to be finished
I've been at this for well over a decade with many different platforms. Best option is, if is is a possibility for you, to build one car to one specific need. Having one to do it all is always going to be a compromise, but sometimes that is completely fine and dandy as well.
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borivojc (01-19-2021)
01-11-2021, 11:59 AM
#4
Thank you for your reply. I honestly stand in the middle between Cobb and Softronic. I think the Cobb probably has more to offer with the pro tune and PDK, but there is the fear that any extra squeezed out HP is extra risks, but I am not confident to say that. I don't really want to go through the pro-tune pain either with testing multiple maps, reporting back, repeat. I am not sure I am experienced enough to notice much more than major issues and the minor stuff might slip by and the indy i trust isn't the closest either. I really like the idea of having the vehicle be in stock mode, then when pressing the sport button having a "tuned" mode, which I believe Softronic is the only one offering this? There are a lot of variables that would absolutely steer me one way or the other. I would absolutely throw APR into the mix if they had a home solution, I think especially if everyone is still learning the ECU capabilities firmware updates might be critical, but still not sure.
01-11-2021, 12:46 PM
#5
You can ask your tuner to go with a safe tune rather than to try to eke out the every last bit of perf. You will not most likely feel the difference of 20-30hp in any case. The only thing to keep in mind, and your tuner worth their salt will know this, is the low end torque.
You can always mix and match, does APR or anyone else have a PDK tune you can take advantage of that will offer higher line pressure for the clutchpacks if you decide to go with a dyno tuned Cobb?
Your ECU is not like a smartphone, these have been out since 2016, updates that dramatically alter the operation of the onboard computer in charge of engine management just do not happen. You can check with Cobb-capable protuners in your neighborhood if they are able to provide you with a solution that will only put the tuned map into use on "sport". Afaik you can spec this with APR, but I'm not completely sure.
If I was you, I'd shoot APR a message with your parameters and see if they can comply: Stock power on normal, uprated power on sport/sport+ and check if they think that a PDK tune is needed or not based on what power level and fuel you want to run at. Then take that data and check locally what tuners near you can provide, that should give you the best solution for your usage case.
You can always mix and match, does APR or anyone else have a PDK tune you can take advantage of that will offer higher line pressure for the clutchpacks if you decide to go with a dyno tuned Cobb?
Your ECU is not like a smartphone, these have been out since 2016, updates that dramatically alter the operation of the onboard computer in charge of engine management just do not happen. You can check with Cobb-capable protuners in your neighborhood if they are able to provide you with a solution that will only put the tuned map into use on "sport". Afaik you can spec this with APR, but I'm not completely sure.
If I was you, I'd shoot APR a message with your parameters and see if they can comply: Stock power on normal, uprated power on sport/sport+ and check if they think that a PDK tune is needed or not based on what power level and fuel you want to run at. Then take that data and check locally what tuners near you can provide, that should give you the best solution for your usage case.
01-11-2021, 12:51 PM
#6
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My understanding is that each of the ECU tuning applications (Cobb, Softronic, etc) are finding new capabilities of the ECU monthly and hence firmware updates. If this is the case why would anyone not choose the Cobb considering APR would need to go to a shop at an additional expense; I am not sure but it does not seem as if Softronic sends firmware updates but rather a one-time tune and charges $500 for modifications for each further instance. I guess the question on this one is do companies other than Cobb offer “firmware updates” being actual changes for the vehicle based on new R&D or are you stuck with what you have, short of paying again and, do other tuning applications let you know if a new development is implemented? Do any of you that have Cobb Protunes get updates as new developments are found (I'm assuming the same potential issue here)? I feel like these updates are important, however, they equally scare me in the sense, why would you release an ECU tune when you do not fully understand the ECU? I’m not bashing just thinking from the standpoint of staying safe while squeezing out potential.
Thanks,
Chase
I would recommend calling us or other tuners to discuss as you would get more direct information.
Now as to the above as an example if you had a Softronic tune and went to a Dealer and they updated the software in the car we DO NOT charge for making a new file if available. We also do not charge for revisions if available such as Pops and Bangs in certain cars or header installation etc. What we charge for as mentioned would be if you purchased a file for a stock car and then decided to change turbos and make it a manual boost control such as a 997TT that then installed Garrett 30/76, manual boost control , injectors and cat less would be charged if it started as a stock car tune. The Switzer 996 and 997 turbos we did are examples of non stock cars as a rule.
Best,
Scott
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Softronic - Porsche Performance Software Tuning
Faster than a speeding bullet.
Cayman | Boxster | 911 | Cayenne
Like us on Facebook for updates and promos
24HRS Daytona Winners programmed by Softronic!
Porsche Interseries programmed along with teamed owned Tudor and World Challenge cars in an exclusive with Softronic.
Porsche PCA racing binary check by Softronic for compliance.
01-11-2021, 01:14 PM
#7
Thanks for replying to the thread, as Works mentioned, that a safe tune is probably 20-30 HP, would you agree that those are realistic numbers? or is the 115 HP numbers from the Softronic website realistic and "safe-tune", or some middle-ground. I have looked all over and have only found one instance of someone having repair bills from a tune, but I wouldn't call that confirmation that everything carries a low level of risk either.
Thanks,
Chase
Thanks,
Chase
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01-11-2021, 01:38 PM
#8
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Thanks for replying to the thread, as Works mentioned, that a safe tune is probably 20-30 HP, would you agree that those are realistic numbers? or is the 115 HP numbers from the Softronic website realistic and "safe-tune", or some middle-ground. I have looked all over and have only found one instance of someone having repair bills from a tune, but I wouldn't call that confirmation that everything carries a low level of risk either.
Thanks,
Chase
Thanks,
Chase
I think he perhaps was referring to a 991 NA car and not a turbo as 20-30 HP would be even less than the difference from the Base 991.2 of 370BHP to the GTS at 450BHP.
Im also not aware of any issues with a Softronic flash causing any repair bills from it . We have been tuning all Porsche cars from the 964 to the new 718 GT4 for many years.
Best,
Scott
Last edited by Softronic; 01-11-2021 at 01:53 PM. Reason: Text
01-11-2021, 02:07 PM
#9
Scott,
I completely agree that you and your company have a stellar reputation and I tried to include that in my initial post. The only negative i found was HERE, however I still seem to think there might have been something more going on (not Softronics fault), but I am not the right person to really make that judgement. I can say that there are 10+ positives to any even neutral comment for your products and that you are very respected in the community. But I am not sure that my previous question was answered in terms of "safe tune", it seems that you are confident that for a base Carrera 4 991.2 that the GTS HP of 450 HP is still within the safe parameters, but does the full 115 HP claimed still fall within that "safe tune" parameters? It would also be great to know if Softronic has any plans to do any PDK tuning and if full custom tunes are available through Softronic?
Thanks,
Chase
I completely agree that you and your company have a stellar reputation and I tried to include that in my initial post. The only negative i found was HERE, however I still seem to think there might have been something more going on (not Softronics fault), but I am not the right person to really make that judgement. I can say that there are 10+ positives to any even neutral comment for your products and that you are very respected in the community. But I am not sure that my previous question was answered in terms of "safe tune", it seems that you are confident that for a base Carrera 4 991.2 that the GTS HP of 450 HP is still within the safe parameters, but does the full 115 HP claimed still fall within that "safe tune" parameters? It would also be great to know if Softronic has any plans to do any PDK tuning and if full custom tunes are available through Softronic?
Thanks,
Chase
Last edited by smgkc; 01-11-2021 at 02:10 PM.
01-11-2021, 02:16 PM
#10
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Scott,
I completely agree that you and your company have a stellar reputation and I tried to include that in my initial post. The only negative i found was HERE, however I still seem to think there might have been something more going on (not Softronics fault), but I am not the right person to really make that judgement. I can say that there are 10+ positives to any even neutral comment for your products and that you are very respected in the community. But I am not sure that my previous question was answered in terms of "safe tune", it seems that you are confident that for a base Carrera 4 991.2 that the GTS HP of 450 HP is still within the safe parameters, but does the full 115 HP claimed still fall within that "safe tune" parameters? It would also be great to know if Softronic has any plans to do any PDK tuning and if full custom tunes are available through Softronic?
Thanks,
Chase
I completely agree that you and your company have a stellar reputation and I tried to include that in my initial post. The only negative i found was HERE, however I still seem to think there might have been something more going on (not Softronics fault), but I am not the right person to really make that judgement. I can say that there are 10+ positives to any even neutral comment for your products and that you are very respected in the community. But I am not sure that my previous question was answered in terms of "safe tune", it seems that you are confident that for a base Carrera 4 991.2 that the GTS HP of 450 HP is still within the safe parameters, but does the full 115 HP claimed still fall within that "safe tune" parameters? It would also be great to know if Softronic has any plans to do any PDK tuning and if full custom tunes are available through Softronic?
Thanks,
Chase
I think the last post explained much of it By VBB:
"I'm not in the market for a tune for my 981 and don't plan to ever be in the market for a tune, so I don't have any real vested interest in this topic, but I will say to the OP, be careful what you post these days. Negative product reviews are a part of the internet marketplace and are very helpful to potential buyers, but posting untrue statements and hyperbole can be actionable. Your first couple of posts in this thread made it seem as if Softronics completely destroyed your car and you were lashing out at people who were honestly trying to help you resolve the issue. I'm glad you posted your update. Good luck to you."
And yes its a safe range as like I said we have been flashing turbos for a long time with substantial power increases and for many years others haven't even flashed Porsche cars.
Like I mentioned before give me a call as it would offer the most information .
Best,
Scott
Last edited by Softronic; 01-11-2021 at 02:34 PM. Reason: added text and fixed as internet was going in and out .
01-11-2021, 02:25 PM
#11
I will throw my impressions out here on what I have experienced with my Cobb Protuned 991.2. Keep in mind, I have the older more aggressive Cobb OTS Maps-the newer maps are substantially down on power (possibly to keep the power delivery linear)-but down on power non-the less. For my base 991.2 Carerra T 7 spd, the car dyno'd 359whp completely stock. While strapped in, I uploaded the cobb OTS stage 1 tune and the car dyno'd 452whp with just the tune. No hardware-no exhaust, no air filter, etc.-JUST the tune. Now my car is pro-tuned with catless downpipes, Tial inlets and a BMC filter and put down 466whp-not much of a difference but evidently the difference is in the torque which my dyno shop cannot measure as they cant get to the ignition leads on the dyno-but it goes to show how efficient the stock parts are at conservative power levels. The Cobb is nice from a device standpoint and to monitor and log data-but if I had to go down the tuning platform again, I would not chose Cobb unless you can get an acessport with the older OTS maps. Even with a protune, they work off of the existing OTS maps unless your protuner has a prior file using the older maps they would be willing to send you.
If I had to chose today, I would go with Softtronic or APR. APR from a set it and forget it standpoint or if you plan to run e85-Softronic if you want certain things changed (how you want sport/sport plus to act, etc). If you can get your hands on an accessport with the older OTS maps-then that would be in the running IMO. For what its worth, I installed my tune at 9k miles about 22 months ago and the car now has just over 15k miles. I have not had an issue at all.
If I had to chose today, I would go with Softtronic or APR. APR from a set it and forget it standpoint or if you plan to run e85-Softronic if you want certain things changed (how you want sport/sport plus to act, etc). If you can get your hands on an accessport with the older OTS maps-then that would be in the running IMO. For what its worth, I installed my tune at 9k miles about 22 months ago and the car now has just over 15k miles. I have not had an issue at all.
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Sarawnty (01-11-2021)
01-11-2021, 02:57 PM
#13
I want to start by saying thank you all again for responding, this is my first post to Rennlist and its really great to see the access to information that is provided by people posting like you all. I think Works hit the nail on the head with FOMO in terms of PDK, I really dont have a bias with any of the solutions, but it would be interesting to hear if Softronics or APR are going to bring PDK tuning to the market. I am not sure of the difference it makes but it holds the same weight as the ECU tune in that for the expected gains and easy to take back to stock and at $700... (Current Cobb upgrade cost) its not too shabby for the potential gains. That being said out of all of the ECU tuning companies, I would say Softronics and Scott have the best reputation for expertise in the Porsche arena and if they had a PDK solution in the works, that would probably be worth the wait. Scott, do you have any comments on a Softronics PDK solution, full custom tunes or the upgraded diverter valves? Or maybe you can help me with why Softronics solution is just as good as a custom tune?
Thanks,
Chase
Thanks,
Chase
