I've also been looking into different ECU tunes for my 981 Cayman.

Hey Softronic and other tuners - would you provide a money back guarantee if I/we were to have our cars dynoed and your tune does not achieve your advertised gains in HP and torque?

Softronic - https://www.softronicsoftware.com/
FVD - https://www.fvd.net/us-en
APR - https://www.goapr.com/
others?

 

I am not avoiding calling you (Softronics), but again I feel that there are more people that might benefit from this information especially in regards to what has not been answered (diverter valves and full custom tunes). Why keep everything private vs available for anyone with these same questions to see. I would rather go through everything in a slower manor on here as I learn and gain more information and try not to miss anything than call and leave everyone else out of the conversation as well as not being as properly informed to know what to ask. I do plan on calling the solutions that make it through my requirements, but only after I feel that I have enough information to properly speak and learn specific questions for specific platforms.

I must say I agree with Fastguy412 in the sense that if dynos do not meet at least the advertised HP, I would consider the advertised specs deceptive in nature. Ads that are deceptive in nature are illegal and governed by the FTC in the US. Working in the advertising business, its very important for us to make sure we nor our clients make false claims, it can lead to hot hot water.

 

Lots of info in this thread.

The only that matters to me with a dyno is the delta in HP / Tq gained.

Dyno #s can be manipulated, so a 500 rwhp is less meaningful to me than a 75 rwhp gain.

I don't disagree with Softronics recommendation to call them and get a much more detailed response. Feel free to post what they say afterwards.

My preference is to just call various vendors, and get more info than can be posted in a thread.

 

This thread has been informative to say the least. I am in a similar boat with a 17 Carrera 7 spd that I would like to tune within the next few months. APR HQ is semi-local to me in AL so that along with their videos explaining how much R&D went into making their tune safe and reviews posted here on RL have persuaded me to most likely go with their stg 1/93. The at home solution does seem to add value for future tinkering but APR claims that their stage 1 will work with HF filter/ exhaust mods and won’t require any changes.

What are your thoughts on the 9A2 platform as a whole and how much risk is involved with letting your turbo run free? Stock the base is 370hp/331tq and it is claimed to jump to 475hp and 461 tq (max gains) with stg1/93. Can anyone confirm this is actually the case?

Thanks,
Russell

 

I would add one more important piece of information and that is the baseline number. 75whp gain on top of a baseline of 350whp is a larger percentage gain than 75whp on top of 400whp.

 

Heres where I am at if it matters to anyone. I have eliminated Softronics for 1. Its aggravating to me asking valid questions like diverter valves, custom tunes, etc and getting straight ignored and even when trying to force an answer seeing only 1/3 questions addressed. It makes me think that if I can't get straight answers out of him now, I don't want to trust my car to him. 2. One-person shop (or appears to be), I suspect that the R&D budget just cannot be what APR, FVD, or Cobb is capable of injecting. 3. PDK, important or not options are nice, i hear FVD's is great from a customer. 4. Its probably is nothing but the filing stuff with SOS is a red flag for me; I care about the businesses I work with filing their paperwork, it lets me know everything is on the up-and-up forgetting or just plain not doing paperwork for whatever reason just doesn't align with my values.

I also want to mention that SpeedCircuit did reach out and ask if i had any questions (Nice of them!), they offer Cobb and custom tunes. I have replied, asking if they have been trained by Bosch and Siemens for Porsche specific, to which they responded, “As for being trained by Bosch / Siemens - no we are not, and most tuners would give you the same answer. Being trained by the ECU manufacturer isn't necessary, in the same way that virtually no computer programmers were trained by Intel. It might be a nice bragging right, but realistically the important part is that your tuner understands how the logic of the ECU works and is aware of how the different tables interact, along with any constraints.” What are your thoughts, is this training important or not, I see both sides of the coin but in reality don’t know. Input would be great, even if its just with what you would choose based 100% on feeling.


Left in the running in my ranked order at the moment. Please comment with any additional knowledge in the Pro, Con, or Unknown sections if you have anything.


FVD:

Pro:

Porsche only company based in Germany

PDK Available ($1500 Separate)

Quality R&D Budget (3 engineers on staff)

Bosch & Siemens trained for Porsche Specific

$1500 is comparable to APR & Softronics

They posted on RL saying 10% disc to Rennlist members (I think its still valid)

30-day Guarantee

Home Install available



Con:

No Warranty

No Full Custom Tune



Unknown:

Do they do as much as APR?



APR:


Pro:

Powertrain Warranty available

Quality R&D Budget

$1500 is comparable to FVD & Softronics

30-day Guarantee



Con:

No Home Solution/Dealer Only

Updates/Uninstall/Changes are unrealistic

No PDK Option

-Warranty- Any changes need to have written authorization from APR (I get it but have an approved parts list)

No Full Custom Tune

Not Porsche Specific

Powertrain Warranty is 2x the cost ($3000 total)

Unknown:

Powertrain Warranty actual payouts?

Bosch & Siemens trained for Porsche Specific



Cobb:



Pro:

Quality R&D Budget

Accessport is superior to other devices (MyGenius)

Limited PDK Tuning Upgrade Available ($700)

30-day Guarantee

Full Custom Tune Included (SpeedCircuit)

Home Install available



Con:

No Warranty

$1695

No Bosch & Siemens trained for Porsche Specific

Firmware has seemed questionable at times

More work for Custom Tune vs Semi-Custom (Not anyones fault)

Rumored that current FW version has less power than older FW versions



Unknown:

Custom tunes are rumored to be 100% based around the OTS maps, does this really make them more valuable? - What happens after FW update?



VF Engineering/ HEX tune



Pro:



Con:

No Warranty

No Full Custom Tune

$2300

Less Gains than APR or FVD

Dealer Only



Unknown:

Quality R&D Budget

Bosch & Siemens trained for Porsche Specific

 

I keep digging deeper and I have to say I gained some respect for APR with their promo video: . The things that stood out for me is that they invest heavily in sensors and its clear they put a ton of time into their process and tunes (you would have to for Warranty, I suspect its written in house and not 3rd party based on their Warranty Terms). What maybe is scary from this video is he mentioned they started the Porsche Program about 1.5 years ago from May 2020, so Dec 2018. Its not the pedigree of FVD or Softronics in the Porsche arena, but they have been around since 97' and their 80,000sqft facility is impressive, I don't think they are cutting corners on what they are doing or any products nor expenses that may come their way when creating a "baseline" tune. I haven't made up my mind but I will say im leaning on the FVD or APR route, it would be really nice of APR had a home solution, it would make it easier and if there were "updates" I think it would be nice not to have to go to an APR dealer.

 

After more, research in to APR, I very much doubt that they are going to release a home-based solution. There isn't a single solution across their multitude of vehicles and brands supported that offers a home tune, there was a very old version that has been discontinued and is no longer supported but thats it. My guess would be that this may also not be the best deal for them as they would at least have to provide a "MyGenus" device that runs $300, im sure less in bulk but still. I wonder what the dealers cut is? There also could be contract issues with the dealers, I would sure be mad if I were one and I gave customers the tools to do it at home vs coming to the shop. Plus I'm sure the support needed for a home tune is dramatically more than the dealer support. From a customer standpoint I hope they add a home-tune solution, but I understand some of the obstacles they would have to go through. I have continued to edit the Pro and Con list above as I find out more, but without the home-tune feature a lot is taken away for me, as 1. Updates aren't realistic if I have to take the car to the APR dealer every time, 2. Same goes for any changes like 91 to 93 fuel or just removal all together. Im shying away from APR because of the lack of home-tuning but will call them directly and find out more info, if it might come to market. I also want to talk to FVD at this point and compare and contrast if they do all or potentially more then APR's list below. Don't take the list below to mean the FVD doesn't do this either, it just hasn't been confirmed. Coming from the marketing world, I have to say Arin@APR does a pretty solid marketing job. I believe a lot of others actually offer the same features as the list below but without being able to confirm this, it shows that companies that market better make it easier for customers to pull the trigger with them.

• APR & FVD Horsepower - More horsepower throughout the whole rpm band
• APR & FVD Torque - More torque throughout the whole rpm band
• APR Warranty - APR Plus is available, providing a factory term limit matching limited powertrain warranty
• APR & FVD Stages - Multiple performance levels depending on installed hardware
• APR & FVD? Mode Switching - Switchable power levels and features through Porsche Normal, Sport, and Sport+ profiles
• APR & FVD? Flat Torque - Optional torque limited version for a flatter torque profile
• APR & FVD Fuel Grades - Multiple octanes from which to choose
• APR Ethanol - Ethanol support from E60-E85 for maximum performance
• APR & FVD Acceleration - Accelerate faster with more power and reduced throttle lag
• APR & FVD Linear Throttle - Pedal maps adjusted for a more linear feel
• APR & FVD (FVD: LFB- Yes, Brake Boosting?) Brake Boosting - Left foot braking or brake boosting added
• APR & FVD Rev Limiter - Increased redline for higher revving
• APR & FVD? Standing Limiter - Increased standing limiter for higher revving at idle
• APR & FVD? Speed Limiter - Go as fast as you want with the speed limiter out of the way
• APR & FVD? Auto Start/Stop Inversion - Auto Start/Stop defaults to the off position
• APR & FVD? Exhaust Flaps - Enhanced power delivery and drivability through recalibrated exhaust flap actuation
• APR & FVD? Quiet Mode - Keeps the exhaust valves closed in Normal mode, unless driving rapidly
• APR & FVD? Added Safety - Additional safety features and protection modes added
• APR & FVD? Economy - While cruising, or driving normally, your fuel economy may benefit from our optimized calibration
• APR & FVD Direct Port Programming - Clean and easy install through the OBD II port without removing the ECU
• APR & FVD Free Updates - Get free updates for life
• APR & FVD Guarantee - 30 day money back guarantee

 

Seems odd that you would discount Softronic, but be willing to reach out to FVD for unanswered questions.

I have no skin in the game and do not have a tune yet so am following your thread.

What I find reassuring about Softronic is that they tune cars that last for a 24 hr race. Any weakness in tuning will be identified under 24 hr race conditions.

As for continual updates, I find it a good and bad thing. Bad = why didn't you figure it out all in the beginning? Good = they are accepting that their tunes need work.

 

Sadly, there is no one "best" tuner out there. I went with Cobb and their hand held alone is reason to use them as its a game changer. However, for higher HP tunes like mine, I went with APR. If they don't come out with a hand held solution or fix some of the bugs in their tune, I will go back to Cobb. IMO its Cobb or APR and everyone else is far behind.

 

Hi thesaintusa, thanks for participating in the thread! I agree with you across the board. Softronics still holds a lot of merit and maybe a good solution for people, their values and mine just don't align and that is why I eliminated them. I honestly feel like if I cant get my questions answered here with Softronics watching, there is laziness, something to hide, or ego that is getting in the way; none of which i want to trust my vehicle to. I would completely understand if someone else thinks Softronics is the right solution for them and my issues are not a performance based issue simply trust. I must say I really appreciate that Scott has been the only ECU tuning company to participate on this thread, whereas I believe each of the others has a Rennlist account. Please understand that if any of the other vendors avoid my questions when I reach out, I would cut them off the list as well even if it means running stock.

As for the 24 hour race, I dont know what my thoughts are, sure its impressive but the engines only need to last for 24 hours, does this change the way a tune goes or does this mean that with the same tune my vehicle would last forever based on normal use? One of my closest friends is an engineer that builds race cars and I know they build/tune everything in the car to make it through the race but thats about it. I really dont know what the difference, but I don't anticipate racetrack tunes to be apples to apples to street tunes in terms of long term use, but I want my vehicle to be running smooth for many years and miles to come.

As for the updates that was #2 on my initial post, why would anyone release an ECU tune when they dont fully understand the ECU? That being said tiny tiny tweaks are one thing, major are another, apparently cobb has had major changes between FW updates that have degraded power from previous FW builds. I imagine there must be a reason why, their goal is not to have less HP/Torque.

Lastly, I do think its worth noting that APR's powertrain warranty is only valid under their 91 Octane tune and no performance enhancements. I think this is important as for a lot of us the question is longevity and risk of damage, this leads me to think APR is only willing to put their neck on the line with the 91 Octane tune, so that maybe the only way to go to really feel confident (not saying go APR but 91 Octane across whoever).

 

I think one of the last big questions is do ECU tunes cause problems with diverter valves, obviously we do not have the answer to this, but my research has led to yes. Apparently the stock ones can leak under stock use, let alone ECU tuned use (higher boost pressure). I suspect this has been avoided as it would be admitting fault that ECU tunes can cause a problem with our Porsches and that there might be additional expenses beyond the actual tune. There might be a liability matter in there as well, as many claim they are safe and this would be to the contrary of this, if this diverter valve claim is true. APR's valves are ~$330 for the set, plus install which i don't believe is easy to get to. Flat6 also has values and so do many many others, there is rumor that a piston design is inferior to the APR design, but I do not know.

 

I think the logic for only warranty on 91 octane is simple: you can't get 93 octane everywhere. Say a guy in Texas has the 93 octane tune and decides to drive to California where only 91 octane is available. And then decides to do some high speed runs in the desert when it's 115 degrees outside. To protect against someone like this making a warranty claim, the easy thing to do is only warranty the 91 octane tune because 91 is widely available.

 

PTS-BRG, You are right the Cobb Accessport is superior as a unit as hardware (not necessarily tune/software) to anything else out there by a long margin. However, I think APR and FVD are too close to call as of right now. Cobb scares me because of the major FW changes and training on the Bosch and Siemens platforms for Porsche, If the world were perfect I would like to see a Cobb Accessport where APR, FVD, Softronics, or anyone else could have their tune for sale on a Cobb marketplace.

 

On the diverter valves, the stock ones are a garbage cost saving measure. The Bosch ones have been used for around 3 decades on every European car you can think if. The design is basically a bunch of plastic injection molded parts that are probably friction welded together after the diaphragm and spring are installed. They will fail regardless over time, if the car is stock or otherwise. Kind of like water pumps on the BMW 335s which will fail at 60k miles with the cheap plastic impeller.