visitador

I kind of disagree about fuel economy being the driver. When tiptronic was around (think 997.1, 987.1) buyers mainly bought manuals. It is only when PDK came around that new car buyers opted for it even if it was a $3k option. Why? It is a great transmission for daily driving

Rudyr

Tiptronic (and most torque converter based autos) from that time were detrimental to performance versus manuals. PDK, being essentially an “automatic” manual transmission changed that equation which explains SOME of the higher take rate. However, the far bigger factor are the corporate fuel efficiency regulations that have come into play. That led to the trend of software optimized transmissions + more gears. Manual transmissions pretty much top out at 6/7 gears and can’t be fiddled with to max out EPA numbers on their prescribed test. The car companies have a fleet efficiency mandate so they’ll adjust production numbers of different models to ensure they meet them.

I’m not a manual devote, my S4 has a fantastic 7-speed DSG that I wouldn’t change for either a manual or the newer torque converter version in the B9 chassis. That said, I know full well if I want to sell the car it has wildly less appeal than the manual versions which today easily go for 10-15%+ more and are off the market in a few days.

If you want to look at it in an entirely different way, do you think buyers WANTED 4cylinder turbos instead of higher RPM 6’s in Caymans? Of course not, but high RPM engines make HP in the least efficient part of the RPM band, whereas little turbos can excel at the EPA test cycle. The car companies had no choice, the majority of the Caymans come with the turbo4 with the 6 now reserved for a small number of variants that won’t mess up the overall fleet numbers.

TomTarzian

My thoughts, exactly, Pete.

God bless,
TT

Rich_Jenkins

After only owning Porsche's for a short time, I am starting to appreciate how true this is. Congrats on the new '19.

As a further, sort of on-topic comment, after a lifetime mindset of "you'll pry my MT from my cold dead hands", I'm kinda of scared to go try and find a new 992+PDK to test drive that I might actually like it. I'm genuinely thinking of heading up to the Atlanta PEC this fall for a session with a PDK 718 to have some fun and see what Porsche's auto is all about. My '17 is CPOd through another two years past this August, but I've always wanted to do a European delivery...and despite being born in Germany I've never been to either the Nurburgring *or* the Porsche Factory.

manifold danger

There's no doubt the fuel economy game is another factor- but people just aren't speaking with their wallets enough to justify the engineering effort. If they were, there would be more manuals, fuel economy be damned.

Where there's a market, there's a way. Porsche is the only one in a position to deliver on the much-smaller-than-advertised demand, but even that won't last much longer. There's plenty of loud advocates for manuals, and pockets of niche markets like the manual Audis that absolutely do fetch a significant premium for a manual... but by and large these folks are all starting to grow up and get old, traffic is getting worse, and the PDK/DCT/DSGs of the world have been too good for too long to justify having a 3rd pedal. Most people older than 30 have never even driven a manual and that will continue to trend downward, and it's hard for me to bite off on the fuel economy conspiracy theory as the reason this is happening.

Hell every time I go to an autocross or track event and am several seconds off the top cars (which are always PDK), I wonder if I should just give in... it won't happen but if I'm thinking it I know many others have succumbed to it. And I only know it won't happen because I've already succumbed to it- a few years ago as I'm sitting in DC beltway traffic in my STI I decided I'd had enough and traded it in on a DCT M4. It wasn't long after that I realized I couldn't live without a manual, but I will concede that I haven't bought a NEW manual since... both my manual P cars since have been used.

But here's the kicker- if I could have gotten a base 992 in a manual, I would have. I couldn't justify the extra $40k over my 991.2 to get into a 992 S- plus availability was ridiculous so even if I wanted one, I couldn't find one easily.

If people aren't buying new manual cars, manufacturers are going to lean away from it, no matter how loud the advocates are. Porsche have already put themselves in a position for this trend to continue, because I've contributed to it myself.

These are of course my comments based on my anecdotal evidence and I'm no expert, but I think I'm right and that's all that matters on this forum .

The gravitational pull is overwhelming. If I were a betting man I'd put a lot of money that your next car will be PDK/Auto.

NA2

Ferrari is a great example. I believe the much heralded F1 transmission came at an extra cost of $10k plus on new F360's and 430's. Fast forward a decade and the gated manual cars are selling at a 50% premium over F1 cars. Audi R8's are close behind in terms of premium for the manual. I have no reason to think the same thing won't eventually happen with 911's.

manifold danger

I disagree, at least from a perspective of scale. Ferrari is too niche of a market, and the PDK is a legitimately good transmission, the Ferrari F1 is NOT.

I know it's kind of ludicrous to use "scale" in the context of a 911, but there are tons more 911s than Ferraris. If you're looking for a 10 year old Ferrari, you have the luxury of paying more to get exactly what you want. On a long enough timeline sure, there will be a premium for manual 991s but it hasn't manifested itself yet, and I just don't see it getting anywhere near the 50% premiums you're seeing for the Ferraris.

Guards_Red_991

I think this conversation blurred the line between what inflation is doing and what a price adjustment is. One thing is for sure: P cars are benefiting from either one, no matter if you have three pedals or two paddles.
Even my son's 1995 MR2 is appreciating these days.

Sal635

After test driving the 7spd manual and the PDK in the 991, I was done with manual cars. For me, the PDK is a much more engaging car. I drive it in auto while it warms up and then I put the shifter in manual mode, put the car in sport plus and use the paddles. I love the speed of the shifts and controlling the transmission from the paddles. It’s a lot of fun and very exciting to drive.

737gdog

Interesting. I sold my ‘14 pdk for a ‘19T with a manual. I was bored and did not feel engaged with the pdk. To each their own. Having said that, I do think the pdk is a great transmission. Just not for me.

Sal635

Exactly! And isn’t it the same transmission anyway?

I think the main problem is, you don’t really have a choice as a used car buyer. In Canada if you want a 991.1 GTS you are either waiting a long time or compromising somewhere on your list of desired spec. There are so few that were sold new that there are almost 0 available used. I watch the market closely and I very rarely see a GTS for sale.

NA2

also seeing the trend with E46 and E92 M3's, C6 and C7 Corvettes..... 30%+ premium for manual. and they made a helluva lot of M3's and Corvettes over the last 15 years. Who knows?..... in 25 years there will be no one left who knows how to drive a 3 pedal car. .

uphoto

As it should though. Japanese sports cars have always been a bit slower to appreciate it seems, the MR2 is a classic and one day will be worth some money.

luv2sleep

I learned how to drive a “stick shift” by watching my dad when I was 14. I used to drive it up and down the road when the old man wasn’t around.Back in the day, most people learned how to drive a 3 pedal car, even the really bad uncoordinated drivers. YouTube will be around to save the day!

PJ Cayenne

YouTube will never be able to teach the uncordinated how to manage the gas-clutch friction point. That's is learned by stalling and gear gnashing.