Dear Porsche,
06-18-2018, 05:08 PM
#46
Rennlist Member
Correct which is why I think their model is broken. Honestly for the base MSRP of all of these cars, the auto climate control, dimming mirrors, 4 way seats, maybe heated seats, 19" wheels, etc should be standard. The cost of the options are off this planet.
So where we are at this point is that Boxster's are 72K+ set up with a few options. Still seems like a steep number to me given the powerplant.
So where we are at this point is that Boxster's are 72K+ set up with a few options. Still seems like a steep number to me given the powerplant.
06-18-2018, 05:30 PM
#47
Rennlist Member
The 718 name change was just as silly as changing the 944 to a 968 for essentially a heavy refresh.
I just don't see a world where a 4 cylinder 90-100K trim level 718 makes sense. Someone must agree since they are sitting on the lot collecting dust. All of the refinement and quality feel of the car is gone.
Only 4 years ago I paid $72K for my CS with a reasonable set of options. A new BASE car with those same options is now $73-74K. An S build was over 82K. GTS 90K.
Bad math.
Give me a 718 with the new 6 cyl turbo motor, decent gear ratios, and the ability to order one without a wing or manual top and I would pay 110K for that car.
06-18-2018, 05:38 PM
#48
Since I buy new, not used, and trade before warranties expire, the cost of typical options that I don't wan't and are greatly depreciated at trade-in is $20K or so per purchase that I can use elsewhere instead. Extended stays in Paris after I retire next year, come to mind.
06-18-2018, 06:21 PM
#49
Rennlist Member
Issue #1 is why issue #2 won't be changing anytime soon. Probably not until EVs become dominant.
For those of us in the Western markets, the 718 is not for our "world." It is aimed at the Chinese market, and Porsche couldn't care less how it's received elsewhere. Don't hold your breath for an un-neutered Cayman or Boxster, IMO... they already built that, and called it the "918."
They are taking the proverbial ****, all the way to the proverbial bank.
06-18-2018, 10:39 PM
#50
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Since we have deviated a bit from the original topic why don't we use this thread to tell Porsche what we want from our mid-engine cars.
The cars have increased in price too fast.
The cars have increased in price too fast.
06-18-2018, 10:49 PM
#51
Rennlist Member
I'm on the list "just in case" but a) I doubt I'll get one since I've never purchased a new Porsche and b) I really do think I'll use the back seats more once my daughter is just a bit older and can go in a forward-facing car seat.
But yeah, a dream car for me would be a GT3 touring, but with the back seats still available. Cloth seats, leather dash, no sunroof. There is no better car IMO.
I haven't even set foot in a McLaren, Lambo or Ferrari dealership. The idea of no MT is just so depressing to me.
But yeah, a dream car for me would be a GT3 touring, but with the back seats still available. Cloth seats, leather dash, no sunroof. There is no better car IMO.
I haven't even set foot in a McLaren, Lambo or Ferrari dealership. The idea of no MT is just so depressing to me.
06-18-2018, 11:28 PM
#52
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Since Ferrari was mentioned earlier lets take that dive. Ferrari's icon is the front engine V12 car. Just as Enzo intended. He resisted the notion of anything else, but saw the virtues of mid-engine design. They have allowed their mid-engine platforms to reach their full potential. Has Ferrari suffered because of it?
Hierarchy, prices structure, tradition, and strict adherence to 911 were once Porsche's downfall. Its not the 911 that saved the company. It was the Boxster. Well, the Boxster and Toyota's lean manufacturing methods.
Give us all a reason to love your cars more Porsche. Give us the mid-engine sports car we know you can build.
Hierarchy, prices structure, tradition, and strict adherence to 911 were once Porsche's downfall. Its not the 911 that saved the company. It was the Boxster. Well, the Boxster and Toyota's lean manufacturing methods.
Give us all a reason to love your cars more Porsche. Give us the mid-engine sports car we know you can build.
Enzo's most beloved car was the F40
06-19-2018, 12:22 AM
#53
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Enzo’s most beloved car was the next one.
He favored front engine design and had to be cajoled into mid-engine race cars to keep up with the competition.
Dixit, feel free to site your source. What I stated is common knowledge among Ferrari historians. Feel free to look it up.
He favored front engine design and had to be cajoled into mid-engine race cars to keep up with the competition.
Dixit, feel free to site your source. What I stated is common knowledge among Ferrari historians. Feel free to look it up.
06-19-2018, 12:41 AM
#54
Interesting thread - if the rumours are correct, the next GT4 will have a NA flat six stroked to four litres with the X51 cams, porting and headers - this engine will be close in performance to the GT3 engine except with a nominal 7800RPM redline.
In this configuration it will have 440Nm peak torque and 420 to 430HP and have a real world curb weight of ~ 3050lbs (note GT3 PDK 3330lbs)
The platform itself will have incremental improvements and will outperform all 911s except those with RAS. They will be building the car that you want
By the way I own both, I like both, they are complimentary
In this configuration it will have 440Nm peak torque and 420 to 430HP and have a real world curb weight of ~ 3050lbs (note GT3 PDK 3330lbs)
The platform itself will have incremental improvements and will outperform all 911s except those with RAS. They will be building the car that you want
By the way I own both, I like both, they are complimentary
Last edited by groundhog; 06-19-2018 at 06:54 AM.
06-19-2018, 07:40 AM
#55
Negative. A 911 is rear engined. That's the secret sauce. The magic potion. That's what's made it THE icon in the sports car world, the one all strive to be. Why change that for the sake of relative homogenization?
Mid engine is excellent. The textbook perfect engine placement. Give is an array of flat sixes available in their "718" line again, and we're talking. The 911 isn't a true 911 if it crosses over. The engine placement already has (and is continuing to with the 992) scooting more mid. So in that sense, you kind of get tastes of both worlds. Porsche should let both platforms shine, instead of playing politics with them. People will pay up for Caymans with emotive and capable motors, as highlighted by the GT4. Let each platform and distinct taste of sports car experience (rear, mid) shine within their own rights and capabilities. That's what Porsche is about and what makes them *the* and most respected sports car maker.
Mid engine is excellent. The textbook perfect engine placement. Give is an array of flat sixes available in their "718" line again, and we're talking. The 911 isn't a true 911 if it crosses over. The engine placement already has (and is continuing to with the 992) scooting more mid. So in that sense, you kind of get tastes of both worlds. Porsche should let both platforms shine, instead of playing politics with them. People will pay up for Caymans with emotive and capable motors, as highlighted by the GT4. Let each platform and distinct taste of sports car experience (rear, mid) shine within their own rights and capabilities. That's what Porsche is about and what makes them *the* and most respected sports car maker.
06-19-2018, 09:53 AM
#56
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I said elsewhere in this forum that my GTS feels like a superbly capable grand touring car and that my GT4 felt like a true sports car.
As K-A said, let them both shine to their full potential.
As K-A said, let them both shine to their full potential.
06-19-2018, 10:38 AM
#57
911 is certainly a better GT car. Caymans/ boxsters are more noisey and not quite as sure footed cruising around. I bought the carerra because I don’t race/track and wanted a great overall car for daily use.
I’ve driven nearly 70k miles on a boxster. Things like AWD and RAS on the carerra make a big difference and aren’t possible in the smaller car. Despite not being mid engine, the 991.2 handles corners and everything better. I don’t see why I'd want it to be mid engine.
I think OP just wants a more raw experience. Loud engine behind their head and a droning exhaust ringing in ears. Twitchy handling that raises your pulse. I had the 981 and been there done that. My preference has changed and I prefer the new 911 experience where it is an extremely capable car, but you can also comfortably drive it daily for long durations. I like the experience of a low sporty seating position, tight percise handling/ suspension, wide low profile tires, and unlimited gripe pushed by a torquey engine that makes just enough noise to not be obnoxious.
As others mentioned, you probably want a lotus. That might be the experience you’re looking for. I don’t think that’s what porsche is all about.
I’ve driven nearly 70k miles on a boxster. Things like AWD and RAS on the carerra make a big difference and aren’t possible in the smaller car. Despite not being mid engine, the 991.2 handles corners and everything better. I don’t see why I'd want it to be mid engine.
I think OP just wants a more raw experience. Loud engine behind their head and a droning exhaust ringing in ears. Twitchy handling that raises your pulse. I had the 981 and been there done that. My preference has changed and I prefer the new 911 experience where it is an extremely capable car, but you can also comfortably drive it daily for long durations. I like the experience of a low sporty seating position, tight percise handling/ suspension, wide low profile tires, and unlimited gripe pushed by a torquey engine that makes just enough noise to not be obnoxious.
As others mentioned, you probably want a lotus. That might be the experience you’re looking for. I don’t think that’s what porsche is all about.
06-19-2018, 11:17 AM
#58
Looking forward to the GT4, its much closer to the historical ethos of the 911 - sit in a 996 GT3 and a Cayman/GT4 and you'll see it right away. The 911 since the 991 was released has become more of a fast GT car.
Want GT car get 911, want sports car get cayman
solution if you can own both - best of both worlds.911 is certainly a better GT car. Caymans/ boxsters are more noisey and not quite as sure footed cruising around.
I’ve driven nearly 70k miles on a boxster. Things like AWD and RAS on the carerra make a big difference and aren’t possible in the smaller car. Despite not being mid engine, the 991.2 handles corners and everything better. I don’t see why I'd want it to be mid engine.
I’ve driven nearly 70k miles on a boxster. Things like AWD and RAS on the carerra make a big difference and aren’t possible in the smaller car. Despite not being mid engine, the 991.2 handles corners and everything better. I don’t see why I'd want it to be mid engine.
I like both, I own both and respect them "warts and all" even the RSR has adopted the Cayman layout, largely for aero and tire preservation - nontheless thats whats happened.
06-20-2018, 09:23 AM
#60
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
So it sounds like as long as Porsche lets the 911 be a 911 with the motor in the rear its all good to let the Cayman platform rip.
Most of us want the 911 to remain the icon, but there is room to let the Cayman/Boxster reach their full potential.
Most of us want the 911 to remain the icon, but there is room to let the Cayman/Boxster reach their full potential.
