Dear Porsche,
06-26-2018, 02:05 PM
#106
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Porsche will never have the Cayman reach it’s full potential. Why? Because of the 911.
In the world of sports cars, and really the world of cars generally, there is no other marque making a rear-engine car.
This is what separates Porsche from the rest of the marketplace. And, really, it’s what defines the brand.
The reason people buy a Cayenne or Macan or perhaps even the new, ahem, Taycan, do so, in part, because of the 911, and the iconic image it imparts.
Plus, it would be hard, or at least harder, for Porsche to compete in the marketplace by making the Cayman platform its centerpiece as the market for mid-engine cars are about as packed as a can of sardines.
In the world of sports cars, and really the world of cars generally, there is no other marque making a rear-engine car.
This is what separates Porsche from the rest of the marketplace. And, really, it’s what defines the brand.
The reason people buy a Cayenne or Macan or perhaps even the new, ahem, Taycan, do so, in part, because of the 911, and the iconic image it imparts.
Plus, it would be hard, or at least harder, for Porsche to compete in the marketplace by making the Cayman platform its centerpiece as the market for mid-engine cars are about as packed as a can of sardines.
06-27-2018, 07:06 AM
#108
Agreed.
They need to give us a Cayman we can all love again.
I mentioned above that I have been pondering other brands because there is no new Cayman that stirs the soul.
My 991.2 GTS is a great car but I enjoy driving my beloved 12 year old Cayman S more. That shouldn't make sense to Porsche, but that is what they are feeding us.
I need to start test driving the other cars.
They need to give us a Cayman we can all love again.
I mentioned above that I have been pondering other brands because there is no new Cayman that stirs the soul.
My 991.2 GTS is a great car but I enjoy driving my beloved 12 year old Cayman S more. That shouldn't make sense to Porsche, but that is what they are feeding us.
I need to start test driving the other cars.
It strikes me that you want something like a GT3 engined GT4 and yet don't intend to use it for anything more than driving round on public roads - if you can't drive it to its limits in the first place, adding something like the GT3 engine only adds cost - and you don't get much chance to rev it out on public roads e.g. 80mph in 2nd.
I don't think the next GT4 will be particularly "neutered" and as a Cayman I think it'll be pretty good - and I don't think there were many dissatisfied 981 customers. I know there have been lots of "internet" complaints about the 718 power plant, however having recently driven the 718 GTS - I think most of those complaints are perception rather than reality e.g. I'm not paying for a four banger turbo etc when in fact the engine works well, delivers great smooth and seamless power - if you take the perception blinkers off its actually much better.
The GTS is a great tourer - the only way you can get a sense of what its like off the leash is through a track day - you'll find its very good and a very different side of its character is exposed.
Perhaps the mid-engined Corvette will do it for you???
Last edited by groundhog; 06-27-2018 at 08:31 AM.
06-27-2018, 09:01 AM
#109
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
So whats the problem with the GT4? Do you believe it is substantially neutered and how so if you're not tracking it in competition? How about the proposed 718 GT4? whats wrong with that package as far as we know it?
It strikes me that you want something like a GT3 engined GT4 and yet don't intend to use it for anything more than driving round on public roads - if you can't drive it to its limits in the first place, adding something like the GT3 engine only adds cost - and you don't get much chance to rev it out on public roads e.g. 80mph in 2nd.
I don't think the next GT4 will be particularly "neutered" and as a Cayman I think it'll be pretty good - and I don't think there were many dissatisfied 981 customers. I know there have been lots of "internet" complaints about the 718 power plant, however having recently driven the 718 GTS - I think most of those complaints are perception rather than reality e.g. I'm not paying for a four banger turbo etc when in fact the engine works well, delivers great smooth and seamless power - if you take the perception blinkers off its actually much better.
The GTS is a great tourer - the only way you can get a sense of what its like off the leash is through a track day - you'll find its very good and a very different side of its character is exposed.
Perhaps the mid-engined Corvette will do it for you???
It strikes me that you want something like a GT3 engined GT4 and yet don't intend to use it for anything more than driving round on public roads - if you can't drive it to its limits in the first place, adding something like the GT3 engine only adds cost - and you don't get much chance to rev it out on public roads e.g. 80mph in 2nd.
I don't think the next GT4 will be particularly "neutered" and as a Cayman I think it'll be pretty good - and I don't think there were many dissatisfied 981 customers. I know there have been lots of "internet" complaints about the 718 power plant, however having recently driven the 718 GTS - I think most of those complaints are perception rather than reality e.g. I'm not paying for a four banger turbo etc when in fact the engine works well, delivers great smooth and seamless power - if you take the perception blinkers off its actually much better.
The GTS is a great tourer - the only way you can get a sense of what its like off the leash is through a track day - you'll find its very good and a very different side of its character is exposed.
Perhaps the mid-engined Corvette will do it for you???
1. These are road cars that can be driven on track. These are not race cars.
2. I am surprised that a Porsche enthusiast would ask why we would want a more capable GT4.
3. I love my Porsches, but will gladly consider other brands.
06-27-2018, 09:38 AM
#110
(2) You aren't a track guy by admission - as a road car its very, very capable - as a road car where is it lacking? cup holders???
(3) You should - but what are you looking for
You are being very inconsistent
What do you really want a cayman to look like on a spec sheet and how do you want it to drive? and why do you think the former is important in relation to the latter?
There are plenty of mid-engined choices out there - some of them are superb 488GTB and 720S for example........if you have places where you can use and explore them.
Perhaps Subaru got it right with the BRZ
Perhaps you should explore the limits of your GTS in a controlled environment
even as a daily its far, far better than anything made by Benz or BMWPerhaps you should articulate what you want - because there is no such thing as a 500HP "analogue" sports car thats good as a daily driver - irrespective of the marketing.
Maybe its as simple as taking the blinkers off and going for a drive in a 718GTS, as one enthusiast to another
Last edited by groundhog; 06-27-2018 at 10:11 AM.
06-27-2018, 10:14 AM
#111
You did - you told the forum your first Porsche was your current 991 Series 2 GTS and that you had come from a back ground of modded M3's .................
As I suggested, go do Targa Tasmania in your 911 - ask Jim Richards if he thinks the Cayman is slow - then tell us what you learned from that experience.
It'll open your eyes to reality - specifically that a Cayman at full ham is a great piece of kit and not in the least bit slow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFN51-OvJhc
- you told the forum your first Porsche was your current 991 Series 2 GTS and that you had come from a back ground of modded M3's .................As I suggested, go do Targa Tasmania in your 911 - ask Jim Richards if he thinks the Cayman is slow - then tell us what you learned from that experience.
It'll open your eyes to reality - specifically that a Cayman at full ham is a great piece of kit and not in the least bit slow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFN51-OvJhc
http://www.rallyresults.com.au/targa/tt2018/leaders.pdf
06-27-2018, 10:17 AM
#112
I thought this was pretty interesting so I went over the Targa Tasmania website. It seems I found that in spite of the high praise for the Cayman in the video that for 2017 and 2018 it seems that Mr. Richards and Mr. Oliver are competing in a 2016 GT3 RS.
http://www.rallyresults.com.au/targa/tt2018/leaders.pdf
http://www.rallyresults.com.au/targa/tt2018/leaders.pdf
http://www.rallyresults.com.au/targa.../GT2_Final.pdf
The very obvious point being the Cayman is an excellent car and is clearly competitive........
As owner of both 911 and Cayman it comes down to the driver/course/circuit
06-27-2018, 10:42 AM
#114
But as a fundamental driving tool? It’s perfection, imo. Probably the toughest case of brain vs emotion I’ve had to deal with in the car world. On one hand, so excellent and riveting. On the other, not inspiring and the engine starts to get boring. Really a mixed bag of feelings.
06-27-2018, 10:45 AM
#115
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
sounds like groundhog hasn't had his morning tequila.
You have made some sweeping assumptions from the statement that I haven't been to the track in more than three months.
Am i a race car driver? Absolutely not.
Have i spent some time at a track? Enough to have been an instructor.
Funny you should bring up BMW or Benz, because that is exactly of what my GTS reminds me of and I love it for that.
Perhaps you forgot the initial intent of this thread. It was to advocate for Cayman parity with 911 tech and hardware. To give us a fully developed, no compromises GT4.
Regarding the 718 models, I have not said one negative thing about them. In fact, if you read above you see me proposing a 4 cylinder GT4 as an alternative power plant.
I agree they are worthy additions to the Porsche line, but not in the same vein as the original.
Since groundhog is fond of 718 power density what would he say about a 912? Why wouldn't that be an equally terrific option just as the 718 is?
As one enthusiast to another...
You have made some sweeping assumptions from the statement that I haven't been to the track in more than three months.
Am i a race car driver? Absolutely not.
Have i spent some time at a track? Enough to have been an instructor.
Funny you should bring up BMW or Benz, because that is exactly of what my GTS reminds me of and I love it for that.
Perhaps you forgot the initial intent of this thread. It was to advocate for Cayman parity with 911 tech and hardware. To give us a fully developed, no compromises GT4.
Regarding the 718 models, I have not said one negative thing about them. In fact, if you read above you see me proposing a 4 cylinder GT4 as an alternative power plant.
I agree they are worthy additions to the Porsche line, but not in the same vein as the original.
Since groundhog is fond of 718 power density what would he say about a 912? Why wouldn't that be an equally terrific option just as the 718 is?
As one enthusiast to another...
06-27-2018, 01:37 PM
#118
Rennlist Member
Any brand that has an Icon that is worth protecting does what it can to protect it. Obviously the 911 is a worthy Icon. So why would Porsche risk it. the car performs somewhat flawlessly. Winning Lemans 24 hours is no small feat. Building an equal performing mid engine car or greater means another model at an equal or higher price in a line up already model rich.
I have owned 2 different Boxster S (both flat6 versions) and loved how they made me look like a more than capable driver. But Porsche isn't going to build a mid engine 500 hp car at a lower price which the Boxster and Cayman fill a niche not reached by any 911 with minimal options.Would it be interesting sure will it happen most likely not. The 911 continues to move engine placement closer to the mid level while retaining the rear seat that makes it unique and the driving dynamics are amazingly improved over very early 911's.
If Porsche doesn't have what you really want there are some great cars that are mid engined. as someone stated above most are not driveable on a daily basis.
I have owned 2 different Boxster S (both flat6 versions) and loved how they made me look like a more than capable driver. But Porsche isn't going to build a mid engine 500 hp car at a lower price which the Boxster and Cayman fill a niche not reached by any 911 with minimal options.Would it be interesting sure will it happen most likely not. The 911 continues to move engine placement closer to the mid level while retaining the rear seat that makes it unique and the driving dynamics are amazingly improved over very early 911's.
If Porsche doesn't have what you really want there are some great cars that are mid engined. as someone stated above most are not driveable on a daily basis.
06-27-2018, 04:30 PM
#119
Rennlist Member
IMO there is no "better" car.
It ALL boils down to personal preference. It doesn't matter if the 911 (in whichever variant) has the fastest lap time at xxx track. Who cares?
If one prefers the characteristics of a rear engine car then obviously the 911 fills the need.
If one prefers mid-engine - then Cayman or Boxster is the choice (or another mid-engine brand)
I know our 991RS is better statistically in power, speed, etc. But FOR ME (emphasis on ME!) the GT4 is the "better car". Not because it can outperform the RS but because it's the car I PREFER! I like just about everything about it better than the RS (how the cabin feels, the handling, the shifting). I love the look of the RS (especially the purple paint) and it sounds great but so does the GT4 IMO.
I happen to love the mid-engine and while I appreciate other cars (including rear and front engine) for what they are - I (so far) would rather drive a mid-engine. It's not right/wrong/better/worse. It's just what I LIKE and enjoy the most.
I suppose some folks could say I'm "deficient or defective" because I prefer a mid-engine and that's fine. They can say whatever they want. I make zero judgements about what anyone else prefers to have in their garage.
It seems like there's a lot of discussion trying to prove which is better. It doesn't matter what's on paper or even which one gets the fastest lap at the test track. The bottom line is to buy what you like. I don't really care if Porsche comes up with an "un-neutered" version of the GT4 because I don't really exploit the limits of the car as it is now. Yes I have driven in anger on many tracks, and i've reached the limit of adhesion MANY times, and in a few cases even reached the limit of the car's power/torque/braking. But not very often because it's not how I choose to drive most of the time. I want to have fun. I don't race. I don't use slicks. I want to drive home in one piece with a HUGE smile!
Frankly the Cayman R may have met my needs even better and I still miss that car even though "on paper" the GT4 is superior in every way. What I do love about the GT4 over the R is that transmission. I love shifting the GT4. But if I never got a build slot, and kept the R I'd be just as happy (which brings into question whether I made a smart decision to spend what it cost to get into the GT4 in the first place - but I can't turn back the clock and I have no regrets since I had to make a choice).
One caveat: I fully understand why lap times and test data are important to the sales of the car. There are many reasons. What I mean by the comments above is that those stats aren't important to me because I drive what I prefer. I also know I will never be the "fastest" on the track or elsewhere. My sense of self-preservation usually kicks in at a speed that doesn't allow me to "win" (my personal best is 165 at Pocono in our Lambo which felt solid as a rock but I didn't like the speed and will probably never drive that fast again because I choose NOT to).
To the OP - it's a very interesting discussion and I've enjoyed most of what I've read so far.
Can't we all just get along?
It ALL boils down to personal preference. It doesn't matter if the 911 (in whichever variant) has the fastest lap time at xxx track. Who cares?
If one prefers the characteristics of a rear engine car then obviously the 911 fills the need.
If one prefers mid-engine - then Cayman or Boxster is the choice (or another mid-engine brand)
I know our 991RS is better statistically in power, speed, etc. But FOR ME (emphasis on ME!) the GT4 is the "better car". Not because it can outperform the RS but because it's the car I PREFER! I like just about everything about it better than the RS (how the cabin feels, the handling, the shifting). I love the look of the RS (especially the purple paint) and it sounds great but so does the GT4 IMO.
I happen to love the mid-engine and while I appreciate other cars (including rear and front engine) for what they are - I (so far) would rather drive a mid-engine. It's not right/wrong/better/worse. It's just what I LIKE and enjoy the most.
I suppose some folks could say I'm "deficient or defective" because I prefer a mid-engine and that's fine. They can say whatever they want. I make zero judgements about what anyone else prefers to have in their garage.
It seems like there's a lot of discussion trying to prove which is better. It doesn't matter what's on paper or even which one gets the fastest lap at the test track. The bottom line is to buy what you like. I don't really care if Porsche comes up with an "un-neutered" version of the GT4 because I don't really exploit the limits of the car as it is now. Yes I have driven in anger on many tracks, and i've reached the limit of adhesion MANY times, and in a few cases even reached the limit of the car's power/torque/braking. But not very often because it's not how I choose to drive most of the time. I want to have fun. I don't race. I don't use slicks. I want to drive home in one piece with a HUGE smile!
Frankly the Cayman R may have met my needs even better and I still miss that car even though "on paper" the GT4 is superior in every way. What I do love about the GT4 over the R is that transmission. I love shifting the GT4. But if I never got a build slot, and kept the R I'd be just as happy (which brings into question whether I made a smart decision to spend what it cost to get into the GT4 in the first place - but I can't turn back the clock and I have no regrets since I had to make a choice).
One caveat: I fully understand why lap times and test data are important to the sales of the car. There are many reasons. What I mean by the comments above is that those stats aren't important to me because I drive what I prefer. I also know I will never be the "fastest" on the track or elsewhere. My sense of self-preservation usually kicks in at a speed that doesn't allow me to "win" (my personal best is 165 at Pocono in our Lambo which felt solid as a rock but I didn't like the speed and will probably never drive that fast again because I choose NOT to).
To the OP - it's a very interesting discussion and I've enjoyed most of what I've read so far.
Can't we all just get along?