Dear Porsche,
06-22-2018, 03:45 AM
#76
06-22-2018, 03:56 AM
#77
Really, I think you'll find a lot of track rats will disagree with you 
largely because we see the outcomes and times on a regular basis.
I was in event a few weeks ago where cars were set off at 30 second intervals on a street stage - the car in front of me was an M4 - The stage lasted about 2 and half minutes - I made up 24 seconds on the M4 and was hitting the push to pass warning. I was in a 981 GTS. I see the same at various tracks - although the difference in time is much less but can easily be 4 to 6 seconds a lap. Likewise I see plenty of Caymans nailing all sorts of different 911s the exception being well driven relatively late model GT3s. Within reason it has little to do with HP/TQE and a lot to do with maintenance of corner speed.
I have a great deal of respect for both the Cayman and 911 - they have different strengths and weaknesses - however, in both you have to learn to exploit the strengths and minimise the weaknesses - this takes, time practice, coaching and understanding.
largely because we see the outcomes and times on a regular basis.I was in event a few weeks ago where cars were set off at 30 second intervals on a street stage - the car in front of me was an M4 - The stage lasted about 2 and half minutes - I made up 24 seconds on the M4 and was hitting the push to pass warning. I was in a 981 GTS
. I see the same at various tracks - although the difference in time is much less but can easily be 4 to 6 seconds a lap. Likewise I see plenty of Caymans nailing all sorts of different 911s the exception being well driven relatively late model GT3s. Within reason it has little to do with HP/TQE and a lot to do with maintenance of corner speed.I have a great deal of respect for both the Cayman and 911 - they have different strengths and weaknesses - however, in both you have to learn to exploit the strengths and minimise the weaknesses - this takes, time practice, coaching and understanding.
06-22-2018, 04:02 AM
#78
No, just your experience. We mod our cars. At the last meet, an M3 with a few adjustabe bars and suspension was lapping faster than all of the stock GT3's.
I was not comparing M4 to 911. I said M4 is better than M2. And 911 is better than Cayman.
I also disagree about RWS. I deliberately di not tick that box. I do not need that assistance. I will replace some bars with elephant racing bars. I enjoy the analogue feel.
Your experiences do not detract from things I have witnessed first hand. I know the 911 is not be all and end all. But with a few mods, its my weapon of choice. And every single cayman I came up against, it wasn't even a race.
They disappered from view, never to be seen again. Don't care what others drive. I will stick with 911's.
I was not comparing M4 to 911. I said M4 is better than M2. And 911 is better than Cayman.
I also disagree about RWS. I deliberately di not tick that box. I do not need that assistance. I will replace some bars with elephant racing bars. I enjoy the analogue feel.
Your experiences do not detract from things I have witnessed first hand. I know the 911 is not be all and end all. But with a few mods, its my weapon of choice. And every single cayman I came up against, it wasn't even a race.
They disappered from view, never to be seen again. Don't care what others drive. I will stick with 911's.
06-22-2018, 04:09 AM
#79
You probably need to do some serious track work and then you'll get it .
Theres an enormous difference between modding a car and racing one. Its all about the driver, the level of experience and skill level.
Do you know what rear wheel steering actually does? or more correctly rear axle steering. Its great on a track.
Now that is BS - then I realised you're talking about DE days
Stick with 911s - I think you'll find there are plenty of 911 owners that own Caymans, Spyders, GT4s, GT3s and RSs - some of us really do enjoy racing them competitively - its fun . They're all good in different ways and thats the beauty of the Porsche sports car line up - each one offers up something unique in terms of performance or unique in the way the owner has specced the car.
.Theres an enormous difference between modding a car and racing one
. Its all about the driver, the level of experience and skill level.Do you know what rear wheel steering actually does? or more correctly rear axle steering. Its great on a track.
- then I realised you're talking about DE days Stick with 911s - I think you'll find there are plenty of 911 owners that own Caymans, Spyders, GT4s, GT3s and RSs - some of us really do enjoy racing them competitively - its fun . They're all good in different ways and thats the beauty of the Porsche sports car line up - each one offers up something unique in terms of performance or unique in the way the owner has specced the car.
Last edited by groundhog; 06-22-2018 at 04:41 AM.
06-22-2018, 07:24 AM
#80
Hahah, Agreed. I wanted a sports car, but when I looked around there was nothing I liked..........But then I drove one that someone else had said the same thing, many years ago and decided to build. From my very first drive of a 911, I was hooked. I got it. It was like nothing else I had ever driven.
I have since driven Caymans, and in my opinion they don't stack up. They are MEH. Its like when I drove an M2. It too was MEH. The Cayman reminds me of an M2. Everyone talks about the balance and how it makes them feel like a better driver. I do not experience that at all.....I am not fooled. I will tell you exactly why they get that feeling from both an M2 that they don't get in an M4 and from a Cayman that they don't get from a 911.
It is because they are moving SLOWER!!!!
If you are doing everything slower, it can feel to you that it has more balance. The 911 has the right feel for me. I think they don't bother creating an UBER Cayman, because it would still be less than a 911, but out of its price bracket.
Some people feel safer in a smaller, slower car. I would think Porsche have had many rear mounted wins against Mid mounted competitors.
Each to there own, but 911 is where it is at for me.
I have since driven Caymans, and in my opinion they don't stack up. They are MEH. Its like when I drove an M2. It too was MEH. The Cayman reminds me of an M2. Everyone talks about the balance and how it makes them feel like a better driver. I do not experience that at all.....I am not fooled. I will tell you exactly why they get that feeling from both an M2 that they don't get in an M4 and from a Cayman that they don't get from a 911.
It is because they are moving SLOWER!!!!
If you are doing everything slower, it can feel to you that it has more balance. The 911 has the right feel for me. I think they don't bother creating an UBER Cayman, because it would still be less than a 911, but out of its price bracket.
Some people feel safer in a smaller, slower car. I would think Porsche have had many rear mounted wins against Mid mounted competitors.
Each to there own, but 911 is where it is at for me.
That's my experience. IMO, out of the box, it's hard to beat the Cayman as the ultimate drivers car. Just as it's hard to beat the 911 as the ultimate sports car.
06-22-2018, 09:40 AM
#81
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
1. If the Cayman went the way of the 914, 944, and 968 would anyone miss it? Those three generations set the precedence for the Cayman's departure.
2. If the Cayman was replaced by an electric sports car that slots below the 911 would that be ok? I believe this to be a possibility.
3. If a 912 needed to exist or the 911 took on a 4cylinder motor to continue offering a gas engine would that be ok?
4. Could a modern 928 coexist with the 911?
You guys got me exploring some of the possibilities that Porsche will need to consider looking ahead.
Also, Porsche please grant me a 911 GT3 Touring allocation.
Bob Hall is my sales advisor at Autobahn Porsche.
2. If the Cayman was replaced by an electric sports car that slots below the 911 would that be ok? I believe this to be a possibility.
3. If a 912 needed to exist or the 911 took on a 4cylinder motor to continue offering a gas engine would that be ok?
4. Could a modern 928 coexist with the 911?
You guys got me exploring some of the possibilities that Porsche will need to consider looking ahead.
Also, Porsche please grant me a 911 GT3 Touring allocation.
Bob Hall is my sales advisor at Autobahn Porsche.
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tcal765 (11-17-2020)
06-22-2018, 11:14 AM
#83
Rennlist Member
The Cayman never was, and will never be, a high volume sales car even in terms of Porsche sales numbers.
Its a great car but takes a niche buyer.
Porsche from a management perspective needs to decide:
1) Are the Cayman and Boxster lines profitable?
2) Regardless of if they are profitable, Are these cars still checking the box for a low cost, entry level Porsche? History has shown that a low cost entry level car is a great way to get people hooked on the brand and into the showroom. Porsche could consider them to be a loss leader. I am sure they have statistical data on how many buyers of the Boxster/Cayman platform made the jump to more expensive cars.
3) A 912 would dilute the 911 brand. I view this as bad marketing. I never liked the Mustang and Camaro business model. You can go buy a stripped car for a bit over 20K, or a GT500 for 80K.
Its a great car but takes a niche buyer.
Porsche from a management perspective needs to decide:
1) Are the Cayman and Boxster lines profitable?
2) Regardless of if they are profitable, Are these cars still checking the box for a low cost, entry level Porsche? History has shown that a low cost entry level car is a great way to get people hooked on the brand and into the showroom. Porsche could consider them to be a loss leader. I am sure they have statistical data on how many buyers of the Boxster/Cayman platform made the jump to more expensive cars.
3) A 912 would dilute the 911 brand. I view this as bad marketing. I never liked the Mustang and Camaro business model. You can go buy a stripped car for a bit over 20K, or a GT500 for 80K.
06-22-2018, 02:47 PM
#84
Race Car
2. If the Cayman was replaced by an electric sports car that slots below the 911 would that be ok? I believe this to be a possibility.
3. If a 912 needed to exist or the 911 took on a 4cylinder motor to continue offering a gas engine would that be ok?
4. Could a modern 928 coexist with the 911?
06-22-2018, 08:14 PM
#85
plenty of 911 owners own both. Likewise you'll see many more GT4s being tracked relative to 991 series GT3s.
06-22-2018, 08:42 PM
#86
The 911 will always put up better times and be a superior chassis at the limit. Porsche designed it that way. I always like to liken the Cayman/Boxster to "Beginner Level"- like in a video game, you get in it and can go crazy and the exquisite balance will make you feel like a much better driver than you are. The 911 is "Pro Mode"- in that you really need to master and understand it to get the most out of it. It doesn't coddle you and tell you how great a driver you are, as much as it demands you to find its incredible capability and put it to work. More unforgiving. That's the entire charm and brilliance of the 911. Its "perfect imperfection" and "unique imbalance." The Cayman's charm, on the other hand, is in how it is simply put a flawless drivers car which doesn't need much work. Which is better? That's purely preference and mood. The 911 will always keep things most interesting and keep you challenging yourself, while the Cayman will always make you feel like you're doing it just right.
That's my experience. IMO, out of the box, it's hard to beat the Cayman as the ultimate drivers car. Just as it's hard to beat the 911 as the ultimate sports car.
That's my experience. IMO, out of the box, it's hard to beat the Cayman as the ultimate drivers car. Just as it's hard to beat the 911 as the ultimate sports car.
Yes GROUNDHOG (Mario And.) I drive at DE events. And private track days. And The Skid Pan frequently. And Happy laps, and cars and Coffee and the drag strip, and through the Canyons and on country drivemaster days.
I do it all. But of course what I don't do is professionally race it with Professional race car race.
Of course you see more caymans out there they are half the price. The starting price of a 911 here is $300K. A loaded GTS is $350K. GT are over $400K. A GT2-RS is $770K. The mighty cayman is under $100K except the GT4 which is just over $200K. Yes we get well and truely bent over with tax. The cayman is cheap. I get it.
I have one last thing to add and I am done. If we assume that the drivers that set laps at the ring are driving all of the cars at 10/10's. Then how far down the list is the Cayman GT4? Quite a long way. Until they build one that can take down a GT2-RS at the ring, I am not interested in them at all. Doesn't mean you can't be. Loads of guys swear by miata's. Not for me either. I want to soend my days in 911's (Yes multiple) and learning everything there is to know abouthow to control them, and slide them and do all sorts of things in them. I just love them. I don't get the same thrill from a cayman. Thats it. Its probably a lovely car and the best in its price bracket. I don't care, and I don't want one. By all means I hope they build an UBER one that crushes all. But they are far from it. You would know better than I how many different 911's have lapped faster than the GT4. That is my answer. The cayman is slower, and not of interest to me. I'm pretty sure there is a cayman board here, which I never visit, I am here for 911's. The ring has twisties and corners. The cayman does not land on top. End of storey.
06-24-2018, 11:13 AM
#87
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Since this horse is not dead enough let’s keep beating it.
If Porsche built up the Cayman with technologies and hardware equivalent to the 911 line would it alienate the faithful?
Could such an approach bring in new owners?
If Porsche built up the Cayman with technologies and hardware equivalent to the 911 line would it alienate the faithful?
Could such an approach bring in new owners?
06-25-2018, 01:53 AM
#88
Burning Brakes
Personally, when I was looking to buy a sports car, I wanted 2 seats and mid-engine. The 981 Cayman GTS fit that perfectly. I paid $85k spec'd the way I wanted it which was the base price of the 911 at the time. I didn't want to pay less for a convertible as I wanted the hard top. Unfortunately, I was already driving my 981 CGTS when the GT4 was announced and I wasn't able to get an allocation without ADM otherwise I would have been ok taking the depreciation on my car. I'm still happily driving my car every day and been waiting over a year now on waitings lists for the next gen GT4.
Anyways, I would have easily paid 911 prices for an un-neutered Cayman. Even though the 981 Cayman GTS had the 911 engine, it was still neutered. If it had shorter gears, it probably would be faster because it also weighs less. There's an aftermarket multi-link rear suspension available, so it's not like Porsche couldn't do it, but they keep the simpler rear suspension on the Cayman to keep it in line behind it's bigger brother. Personally, I would have been happy if Porsche allowed the top tier Cayman to overlap the bottom tier 911 and priced accordingly with appropriate engine and chassis changes. However, I admit that the number of customers willing to pay that much for the Cayman name vs the 911 name is probably very few.
Porsche is pretty consistent so I'm not hopeful of a unleashed Cayman:
1. there's a direct correlation between price and performance
2. the 911 is the brand and outside of one-offs like the 918, Carrera GT, the 911 is the top tier and they can't allow a sibling (within the same generation) to over take it
3. improvements are incremental so unlikely any big chassis updates to the Cayman unless the 911 has something that moves it ahead
Anyways, I would have easily paid 911 prices for an un-neutered Cayman. Even though the 981 Cayman GTS had the 911 engine, it was still neutered. If it had shorter gears, it probably would be faster because it also weighs less. There's an aftermarket multi-link rear suspension available, so it's not like Porsche couldn't do it, but they keep the simpler rear suspension on the Cayman to keep it in line behind it's bigger brother. Personally, I would have been happy if Porsche allowed the top tier Cayman to overlap the bottom tier 911 and priced accordingly with appropriate engine and chassis changes. However, I admit that the number of customers willing to pay that much for the Cayman name vs the 911 name is probably very few.
Porsche is pretty consistent so I'm not hopeful of a unleashed Cayman:
1. there's a direct correlation between price and performance
2. the 911 is the brand and outside of one-offs like the 918, Carrera GT, the 911 is the top tier and they can't allow a sibling (within the same generation) to over take it
3. improvements are incremental so unlikely any big chassis updates to the Cayman unless the 911 has something that moves it ahead
06-25-2018, 02:19 AM
#89
SJW, a Carin' kinda guy
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
718 sales are not good. 911 sales are still strong and there is huge demand for GT cars. After the 991 wraps up production (including the speedster and the remaining GT3/GT3RS/GT2RS and maybe some unicorn limited production model GT car), porsche has the 992 which, thus far, has not seen much positive response. Sure, those who want the latest (and, thus, presumably greatest) will fill the order books for a while, but Porsche needs something to make some money (maybe Taycan, but I don’t know if the margins will be anything like the existing model line up, at least initially). Finally, to make the 992 sell, Porsche is going to really turn up the wick on power which leaves more room for a high hp 718.
So, long story short, I think you will see a GT4RS with a lot of HP fairly soon. My guess would be a 4.0 NA (or maybe 3.0TT) with 450hp.
As far as what is possible, I don’t see why Porsche could not put some giant intakes in the fenders and fit a 3.8 TT with crazy power. I would buy one of those if it had a manual ..... otherwise I will stick with my 911s.
So, long story short, I think you will see a GT4RS with a lot of HP fairly soon. My guess would be a 4.0 NA (or maybe 3.0TT) with 450hp.
As far as what is possible, I don’t see why Porsche could not put some giant intakes in the fenders and fit a 3.8 TT with crazy power. I would buy one of those if it had a manual ..... otherwise I will stick with my 911s.
06-25-2018, 09:15 AM
#90
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I posted the following in the 718 forum:
I love my Cayman even more than I love my 911 and would really like to see the platform reach its full potential. However, I am not naive to the 911 effect.
See the following and chime in if you like: https://rennlist.com/forums/991/1076...r-porsche.html
I offer the following two as 718 GT4 proposals:
1. 4 cylinder version of the GT3 motor, roughly 2.7 liters
2. smaller displacement version of GT3 motor with 9k max RPM
Neither would bring parity for the Cayman platform, but would still make for a hell of a car.
CJ, it would be good to get your perspective.
I love my Cayman even more than I love my 911 and would really like to see the platform reach its full potential. However, I am not naive to the 911 effect.
See the following and chime in if you like: https://rennlist.com/forums/991/1076...r-porsche.html
I offer the following two as 718 GT4 proposals:
1. 4 cylinder version of the GT3 motor, roughly 2.7 liters
2. smaller displacement version of GT3 motor with 9k max RPM
Neither would bring parity for the Cayman platform, but would still make for a hell of a car.
CJ, it would be good to get your perspective.