991.2 Base/S/GTS Modification & Race Track Prep Thread
#196
Former Vendor
Ok, I accept.
There is an AWD dyno facility in upstate CT that I can bring my car to. I have no affiliation with them and have never even been to the shop.
If you have some suggestions in the state of CT, MA or NYC area let me know, I will provide my car as well as pay for the Vecor part.
Now you have an independent facility that will test on a brand new 2018 GTS at my expense.
Lets see the results, Believe me, I WANT it to provide the gains.
OH, just to be clear and for all to see.. if the part doesnt provide similar results as the motoiq charts then you are willing to refund me the cost of the part, correct?
I would like to add that in BOTH of the charts you just provided, the improvements are from ZERO RPM's all across the powerband.
Not a single spot on either chart that shows the stock header providing more flow than the Vector.
If my dyno chart shows anything like that then you have easily proven the part works.
There is an AWD dyno facility in upstate CT that I can bring my car to. I have no affiliation with them and have never even been to the shop.
If you have some suggestions in the state of CT, MA or NYC area let me know, I will provide my car as well as pay for the Vecor part.
Now you have an independent facility that will test on a brand new 2018 GTS at my expense.
Lets see the results, Believe me, I WANT it to provide the gains.
OH, just to be clear and for all to see.. if the part doesnt provide similar results as the motoiq charts then you are willing to refund me the cost of the part, correct?
I would like to add that in BOTH of the charts you just provided, the improvements are from ZERO RPM's all across the powerband.
Not a single spot on either chart that shows the stock header providing more flow than the Vector.
If my dyno chart shows anything like that then you have easily proven the part works.
You're going to need to define 'similar' results better, as that leaves far too much wiggle room for dyno variances. If it made +30ft/lbs of torque and better spool, but only +5hp, are you going to say it didn't hit the mark? No way.
Lets move this to PM.
BTW the plots both start above 0 RPM. I don't even think it's possible to do that. We set our test window from 3,000-6,800 RPMs and start the pull at ~2,900RPMs to show spool. I don't like to start below that is it abuses the rod bearings terribly and this engine will see LOTS of abuse in it's future.
#197
(1) tune - event logs
(2) tune - third radiator - event logs
(3) tune - third radiator - intercoolers - event logs
#198
Former Vendor
#199
Three Wheelin'
Vector: Every chart I have ever seen provided by you, private owners or the motoiq article have shown a minimum of 19hp to 25hp gains.
Yes, if your headers show a 5hp gain that would be a misrepresentation of the gains and I would ask for a refund.
Do you think $4000 between parts and labor is a reasonable price to pay to gain 5hp? And when has your part ever shown such a low HP gain?
The car cannot show plots at Zero because the engine has to be running to be tested and Idle is 1500 or so.
The chart above does show a 1500 rpm, but I have no problem testing above 3000rpms as that is where it is needed/used anyway.
This is starting to sound like back peddling to me. Your part has to show similar gains to what has been advertised all over the internet based on dyno charts.
Similar gains is 19hp to 25hp. If it shows 15hp is it similar? similar enough. If it shows 35hp is it similar? Yes, that would be outstanding. 5hp? That's an epic fail and refund will be required.
Charts need to show IMPROVEMENT over stock. Want to start at 3000 rpms? Fine with me. 4000 rpms? Fine with me. All I want to know is if your headers significantly improve over stock.
If we cannot agree on the results, how about we let the forum members decide based on the charts? This shouldnt be this hard man..
Yes, if your headers show a 5hp gain that would be a misrepresentation of the gains and I would ask for a refund.
Do you think $4000 between parts and labor is a reasonable price to pay to gain 5hp? And when has your part ever shown such a low HP gain?
The car cannot show plots at Zero because the engine has to be running to be tested and Idle is 1500 or so.
The chart above does show a 1500 rpm, but I have no problem testing above 3000rpms as that is where it is needed/used anyway.
This is starting to sound like back peddling to me. Your part has to show similar gains to what has been advertised all over the internet based on dyno charts.
Similar gains is 19hp to 25hp. If it shows 15hp is it similar? similar enough. If it shows 35hp is it similar? Yes, that would be outstanding. 5hp? That's an epic fail and refund will be required.
Charts need to show IMPROVEMENT over stock. Want to start at 3000 rpms? Fine with me. 4000 rpms? Fine with me. All I want to know is if your headers significantly improve over stock.
If we cannot agree on the results, how about we let the forum members decide based on the charts? This shouldnt be this hard man..
#200
Former Vendor
Vector: Every chart I have ever seen provided by you, private owners or the motoiq article have shown a minimum of 19hp to 25hp gains.
Yes, if your headers show a 5hp gain that would be a misrepresentation of the gains and I would ask for a refund.
Do you think $4000 between parts and labor is a reasonable price to pay to gain 5hp? And when has your part ever shown such a low HP gain?
The car cannot show plots at Zero because the engine has to be running to be tested and Idle is 1500 or so.
The chart above does show a 1500 rpm, but I have no problem testing above 3000rpms as that is where it is needed/used anyway.
This is starting to sound like back peddling to me. Your part has to show similar gains to what has been advertised all over the internet based on dyno charts.
Similar gains is 19hp to 25hp. If it shows 15hp is it similar? similar enough. If it shows 35hp is it similar? Yes, that would be outstanding. 5hp? That's an epic fail and refund will be required.
Charts need to show IMPROVEMENT over stock. Want to start at 3000 rpms? Fine with me. 4000 rpms? Fine with me. All I want to know is if your headers significantly improve over stock.
If we cannot agree on the results, how about we let the forum members decide based on the charts? This shouldnt be this hard man..
Yes, if your headers show a 5hp gain that would be a misrepresentation of the gains and I would ask for a refund.
Do you think $4000 between parts and labor is a reasonable price to pay to gain 5hp? And when has your part ever shown such a low HP gain?
The car cannot show plots at Zero because the engine has to be running to be tested and Idle is 1500 or so.
The chart above does show a 1500 rpm, but I have no problem testing above 3000rpms as that is where it is needed/used anyway.
This is starting to sound like back peddling to me. Your part has to show similar gains to what has been advertised all over the internet based on dyno charts.
Similar gains is 19hp to 25hp. If it shows 15hp is it similar? similar enough. If it shows 35hp is it similar? Yes, that would be outstanding. 5hp? That's an epic fail and refund will be required.
Charts need to show IMPROVEMENT over stock. Want to start at 3000 rpms? Fine with me. 4000 rpms? Fine with me. All I want to know is if your headers significantly improve over stock.
If we cannot agree on the results, how about we let the forum members decide based on the charts? This shouldnt be this hard man..
So if our results, and Moto IQ, and Customers results line up... why the speculation? Your 'I won't believe it till I see it' tactics have a vendor on the cusp of jumping through hoops, to give you forum cred. And show what? What's already known?
It seems to me that if our product was crap, it would be seen by at LEAST one of the public sources so far. The product is vetted, yet I'm questioning what your intent here is because the more I think about it, the more it seems like a redundant cause.
As far as power output per $ that is ALL in the scope of the customer, and not always the end-all be-all checkbox for many. Top race teams will pay far more for far less if it means shaving a few tenths, less unnecessary pit stops, or reducing the probability of a DNF. Bang for the buck if VERY important IMO, but we're not just selling HP here. I think most of us are pretty well versed in 'you get what you pay for'. I know I've learned that hard unfortunate lesson in my early years.
I would do area under the curve results as a percentage and or peak percentages. This way if a stock car makes only 200whp and the header makes +5 it's to scale.
I still have no PM/DM.
#201
#202
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Can we keep this to a race prep thread prep thread please - vektor can set up a tuner or header thread to sell the products they offer.
Straight question to BGB - are you trying to build, prepare and test a GTS for a race campaign or are you more interested in the tuning potential. I'm interested in the former not the latter.
Straight question to BGB - are you trying to build, prepare and test a GTS for a race campaign or are you more interested in the tuning potential. I'm interested in the former not the latter.
My initial intentions for buying this car were to prove the following:
1.) excellent power and torque can be achieved via bolt-ons. (We showed this with the Cobb tune and in about 5 hours when the catless bypass pipes arrive, i plan to install and dyno again next week). A decent set of non-OE headers is the only additional bolt-on power mod i will purchase for the car. Then the tuning side of things will be done until Cobb releases their pro tuner software for the 991.2 and then i can do my own thing to try and massage the car for the better flowing bits on the intake and exhaust side.
2.) Porsche products need very little massaging to make their cars race track worthy but they do need a few upgrades (i have ordered suspension bits to turn the PASM shocks into coilovers, stainless steel braided brake lines, brake pads, SRF fluid, wheel spacers and wheel studs. These are things that a GT3 does not have EXCEPT for the coilovers and lines. Things that the GT3 DOES have are arms and links needed to achieve the camber i want and a larger front sway bar. I am going to order intercoolers and bite the bullet and do all 3 of the PWR radiators but first i have to test fit them on the car; these are also things that are NOT standard on a GT3. I wish i had the aero though that the GT3 does. The reason i keep mentioning the GT3 is that i am trying to do these things without getting to GT3 pricing. I am picking and choosing the things I need and being hesitant to get the things i want.
2.) Porsche products need very little massaging to make their cars race track worthy but they do need a few upgrades (i have ordered suspension bits to turn the PASM shocks into coilovers, stainless steel braided brake lines, brake pads, SRF fluid, wheel spacers and wheel studs. These are things that a GT3 does not have EXCEPT for the coilovers and lines. Things that the GT3 DOES have are arms and links needed to achieve the camber i want and a larger front sway bar. I am going to order intercoolers and bite the bullet and do all 3 of the PWR radiators but first i have to test fit them on the car; these are also things that are NOT standard on a GT3. I wish i had the aero though that the GT3 does. The reason i keep mentioning the GT3 is that i am trying to do these things without getting to GT3 pricing. I am picking and choosing the things I need and being hesitant to get the things i want.
My plan for this thread was as follows:
1.) buy power mods from vendors whom i've worked with since inception. document gains from power mods. share results with you guys with the intention of selling products to those people that value the work that i've done.
2.) install the same race track oriented upgrades we have been putting on street based non-GT3 Porsches since we began racing them professionally in 2004. create a recipe for a bulletproof track car that can run in the hottest of conditions.
3.) go to the race track and try and break something.
4.) Return to the race track with a solution and verify the change as positive or negative.
2.) install the same race track oriented upgrades we have been putting on street based non-GT3 Porsches since we began racing them professionally in 2004. create a recipe for a bulletproof track car that can run in the hottest of conditions.
3.) go to the race track and try and break something.
4.) Return to the race track with a solution and verify the change as positive or negative.
Somehow, some way we got to a place where we are questioning gains and claims by another vendor and if we can please i would like to try and keep that to a minimum. I think we can all agree that the the OE bits, while not that terrible, can always be upgraded for an improvement. Let's just leave it at that!
PST, when BGB is fully sponsored by another manufacturer that he has stated will provide the same component (for free), a company the currently sell for and have had a long relationship with (his words not mine) it smells like a recipe to 'show' how the product he markets and sells perform better. Seems baited to me. You want unbiased testing, pick a facility midpoint between us. You bring your 991.2, I'll bring ours. We'll do before/after on both cars. Compare tunes, datalogs, and of course plots. This would be great (and much more unbiased) for the community as it shows stock-ish and a more modified variant being tested. That said I can appreciate the path BGB is going on will be following his progress.
If folks are interested in a group buy for these products we are going to have to do it outside of this thread because i'm already in a relationship with a supplier that is making products that compete with the aforementioned brand. I have bitten my tongue for a few days now because i'm getting more docile in my old(er) age and i'm not as likely to "ginger snap" but if we can, let's try and pursue a different thread for group buy of a competing vendor's products please, thank you!
Vektor:
I would like to pay full retail for your headers and send them to BGB for dyno testing. Before and after in the same car on same dyno, same day.
I dont think you would have any problem with that as I am not asking for even a one penny discount below retail plus shipping for a set.
I would like to pay full retail for your headers and send them to BGB for dyno testing. Before and after in the same car on same dyno, same day.
I dont think you would have any problem with that as I am not asking for even a one penny discount below retail plus shipping for a set.
#203
Three Wheelin'
You can call me names. I understand the weight of what is being proposed and the potential it can have on your company and your product, so your emotions are understandable.
You can be there when we do the test or you can not be a part of it and see the results. At this point, I am 100% going forward with the testing to get the answers.
I am also 100% certain that if the results are not favorable you will find something to try and blame for it, but I am doing this for me and anyone who is still interested in buying your headers.
I will post up the before and after charts and let the public decide for themselves, I will also make my own determination based on the same chart.
As far as taking this to PM/DM, I have no interest in back room discussions, I prefer that everything is above board and in the public eye so that all of the terms and points are available to go back and review.
"So if our results, and Moto IQ, and Customers results line up... why the speculation?"
Because all of them show different results, were taken on different dynos and frankly, I do not believe any of them.
"It seems to me that if our product was crap, it would be seen by at LEAST one of the public sources so far."
Who? Your own result? MotoIQ results who I have never even heard of before? Maybe the anonymous customer?
IPD has sold far more pieces than you have and no one questioned their results until it was independently proven to show overall DECREASED performance over stock.
I am in a WIN WIN position here. If your headers provide improvements over stock then I get to reap the benefits of a superior part providing increased performance for my car.
If it is garbage, then I get to show the world its junk, save Porsche owners tens of thousands of dollars, disprove your graphs and be the savior of this thread.
How can I lose..
Signed,
"speculative forum lackey"
You can be there when we do the test or you can not be a part of it and see the results. At this point, I am 100% going forward with the testing to get the answers.
I am also 100% certain that if the results are not favorable you will find something to try and blame for it, but I am doing this for me and anyone who is still interested in buying your headers.
I will post up the before and after charts and let the public decide for themselves, I will also make my own determination based on the same chart.
As far as taking this to PM/DM, I have no interest in back room discussions, I prefer that everything is above board and in the public eye so that all of the terms and points are available to go back and review.
"So if our results, and Moto IQ, and Customers results line up... why the speculation?"
Because all of them show different results, were taken on different dynos and frankly, I do not believe any of them.
"It seems to me that if our product was crap, it would be seen by at LEAST one of the public sources so far."
Who? Your own result? MotoIQ results who I have never even heard of before? Maybe the anonymous customer?
IPD has sold far more pieces than you have and no one questioned their results until it was independently proven to show overall DECREASED performance over stock.
I am in a WIN WIN position here. If your headers provide improvements over stock then I get to reap the benefits of a superior part providing increased performance for my car.
If it is garbage, then I get to show the world its junk, save Porsche owners tens of thousands of dollars, disprove your graphs and be the savior of this thread.
How can I lose..
Signed,
"speculative forum lackey"
#204
Rennlist Member
#205
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#207
Its about the MotorIQ dyno. Look towards the top of that dyno. See how it made a peak and then rolled over and made a "M" or "W' type shape across the top? My dyno looked exactly like that. (UGLY)
So I trust that chart. Whereas the one sent in from the customer, that has had to of had smoothing or something. I asked my dyno guy and I never really understood what he was saying, but something like the car starts to reduce torque or something when on the dyno. Sorry I will have to ask again. Basically the car wasn't happy being on the dyno. And it made that ugly M across the top.
So the MotorIQ dyno looks very much like the charts I ran.
#208
Race Director
BGB has been around a long time....all Porsche stuff. They really are a race team and are famous in USA road course racing for converting showroom stock Porsche’s into race cars. Rolex Grand Am was there forte...IMSA Sports Car Racing. They were taking 997 Porsche’s and then the 997.2 GTS and turnip Out Championship racing cars. John really knows what he’s doing. I’m a sports car racing fan and I’ve always admired BGB’s racing efforts.
#209
Race Director
I’ll be doing a track day at Sebring on September 6th. My GTS is stock....so,it will be interesting to see what my oil and coolant temps go up to. My past track events were in much cooler weather with this car.
Ill keep and eye on temps and write them down and report back.
Ill keep and eye on temps and write them down and report back.
#210
I’ll be doing a track day at Sebring on September 6th. My GTS is stock....so,it will be interesting to see what my oil and coolant temps go up to. My past track events were in much cooler weather with this car.
Ill keep and eye on temps and write them down and report back.
Ill keep and eye on temps and write them down and report back.
great, too late for me as I ordered the 3rd radiator before I even received the car, but have a feeling that the stock system works pretty good.