Nick

The lease rates especially from PFS are insane(over 5%). Wouldn't one be better off financing the car at 2% paying the sales tax if they plan to keep the car for 8-24 months? The .2GT3 should not take a depreciation hit during that period and the cost of use would be the sales tax and finance interest less depreciation if any. One should do this math before deciding which is the best option.

orthojoe

Oh now it's ON!!!

Whoopsy

Cause PCNA doesn't even knows about it.

The cars are ordered in a "bogus customer's name", could be someone in their database that hasn't bought a car in years, or could be a long time customer. Doesn't matter, that named customer is not even aware they had a car on order.

Ferrari dealers do this all the time.

On PCNA's side of the computer, they will see that particular order is a sold order, not a stock order, they might or might not check the name, but that would be a waste o time as that name will come up as a customer of that dealer. So nothing wrong there in PCNA's eyes.

Porsche Canada do check the names on the orders, and one of my dealer's customer's name is exactly the same as the sales manager, so when the name came up, they thought the sales manager had ordered the car for himself, it took a bit of explaining to do for that order to go through.

usctrojanGT3

Oh interesting, they'll use John Smith's name to order the car and then once it comes in the take the name off the car and put it into inventory? PCNA should track the # of days in inventory that dealers have GT3s and RSs and if they are beyond a week they should know that the dealer gamed the system to build it themselves to try to get over MSRP.

orthojoe

Those type of dealers will lie through their teeth to get what they need. They'll just say they got 'screwed' by a customer who backed out of their order and now they have to sell a bloated car.

Archimedes

I can't begin to believe that PCNA is not fully aware of exactly what is being done and simply can't do anything about it, as many of the dealers speccing and selling cars themselves are some of the biggest Premier dealers in the country. Also, other smaller dealers aren't hiding the fact that they do this at all.

Hand wringing over this issue is a waste of time, as PCNA has little to no control over what its independent dealers do with the cars.

Dewinator

Is there any way to find out if you're a customer they ordered a bogus car under, and then like claim it?

usctrojanGT3

They may not have a lot of control, but they can also punish those dealers by giving them crappy allocations or not offering them as many GT allocations as they would normally get. How would the dealership know and go after PCNA when the whole GT allocation numbers are a big mystery anyhow?

Archimedes

My point was, PCNA absolutely knows what's is going on. I wasn't commenting on right or wrong, just that PCNA is not being bamboozled by dealers through things like fake names.

orthojoe

They have no reason to use a customer name. They can just make something up.

Of course they know. They just can't do anything about it because the dealer will lie, lie, lie and they can't prove the lie and can't waste time on proving lies.

Archimedes

I don't think they even have to lie. I think PCNA lets dealers spec GT cars for the floor just like they do for every other Porsche. If they weren't, dealers wouldn't be telling anyone who calls that they're speccing some cars for themselves and selling them at market.

Whoopsy

They don't even have to change the status of the car once it arrives.

It will just sit there as 'awaiting delivery'.

A lot of people for all sorts of reason don't go pick up their car immediately.

At the end, when the car is sold to a 3rd party instead of the original name on record, a simple the customer changed his mind or any other lame excuse will do.

The way car selling in the US works, dealers are PCNA's customers, end users are just customers of the dealers. The dealers paid for the car first and the end users pay the dealers. This is why dealers are too powerful a entity to go up against, we 918 VIPs tried and failed.

Whoopsy

GT cars are 'sold' orders, as oppose to inventory orders.

Theoretically, every single GT car built is already sold. Technically that's true for any cars built, as the dealers themselves has to pay for the car first.

Archimedes

Well if you're contending PCNA doesn't know that this is going on, please PM me their email address and I'll send them the names of dealers that flat out told me they're doing this.

chaosoul

Depends on situation (the exact car, what state you are registering the car, exact program and price for the car) it will make sense to pay the 3% interest hike up to even if you're keep the car up to 30 months.


I have went through this in detail on exact calculation of how to determine what will save more money in the "Finance or Buy it Outright" thread, I've reposted a few of the key points below:



Yes its true Lease vs. Finance vs. Purchase will be heavily dependent on two things: Where you register the car, and how long do you plan to keep it.


In CA as many people know, you cannot deduct sales tax of your next vehicle from the previous (trade difference states). You pay 7.25% - 9.75% sales tax depending on where you register the car on every single new vehicle's agreed purchase price. That means some CA people will pay $16,500 just on a 170k GT3 at MSRP. If you lease it, you pay $450 or so on interest per month and $200 per month on sales tax, this will take you 25 months to break even with paying sales tax. That is if you want to pay the car in full cash. If you finance the car at a conservative 2.5%, you will be paying $300 roughly average for first few years per month on interest for a amortized schedule. This means if you finance it, lease will be ahead of you on the pay off at any given point in time until 47 months, which is 4 years.


This means if you plan to finance it, it will cost you more money than leasing it if you kept it for less than 4 years. If you pay in full cash, it will still cost you more money if you kept it for less than 2 years. Of course, for full cash is actually more than 2 years because one can argue the things you can do with 180k (OTD) for 2-4 years.


If you lease a 100k car for 2 years and the residual is 50%, money factor is 0.002 and bought the car at MSRP, then the monthly finance charge (interest) is $300 per month (100,000 x 0.002 + 50,000 x 0.002). The pay off after one year is your purchase price (100k MSRP) minus your monthly contribution to the pay off times 12 months, which is your monthly payment minus sales tax per month and minus interest per month. For example, if your monthly payment is $2200 and your local sales tax is 10%, then pre-tax is $2000 per month, then minus $300 finance charge per month, so your monthly contribution to your pay off is $1700. so your pay off at exactly the day of your 11th month of your lease is 100,000$ - ($1700 x 12) = 79,600.

It depends a lot on what exact car you're buying, because discount and residual changes the numbers. Sometimes it doesn't make too much different, but sometimes it makes a lot so you have to make sure your scenario is not the one that will save you a lot or else you're putting money on the table.


MF for PFS is actually 0.002, until just after April recently where they increased to 0.0022. But at same time PFS increased finance rate and most banks did, so you won't find 1.75% unless you have school or government credit union, but still close 1.99-2.19% is do-able. When you start to get a more and more expensive car, the acquisition fee stays the same and starts to be diluted.


I will give you a few specific actual real examples:


If you buy a 100k Carrera S at 7% discount, the current residual of 65% (36months), and lets assume you based on last month's MF of 0.002 and you can get that 1.75% APR. And assume you live in CA sales tax of 9%


Finance: You pay $8,390 on sales tax and about $3400 on interest over first 3 years. Total is 11,790$ to tax and interest.


Lease You pay $995 upfront acquisition fee. You pay $314 per month on interest, and you pay $98 per month on sales tax. Total is $14,990 to tax and interest. So you actually save with financing.


However, if after 1 year or 1.5 years, you want to sell the car and get into a newer model or something hot like GT3, which a lot of people do, then the result becomes completely different (same scenario):


Finance: Your $8390 on sales tax is unchanged, you pay $1600 on interest due to amortized schedule. Total cost 10k basically.


Lease: You pay $995 acquisition fee upfront still. $314/month interest and tax is still unchanged. Your total cost is $5900.


So you'll spend and extra 4k if you finance if you decide to trade in your car after 1 year. Extra ~3k if for 1.5 years.


There are many other scenarios where it makes sense, almost endless, case by case, when you have car with high residual, like 991 was 72% at one point, you pay super low on monthly sales tax for lease. As car gets more expensive, the $995 acquisition fee becomes more irrelevant, and the 15k-20k upfront sales tax becomes more apparent. Its a lot of math but if you figure out exactly, interest alternatives, residual, how long you keep the car, how much discount on the car, you'll be able to save a couple thousand here and there every time, whether its smarter to finance or lease, it is never exactly equal.


Besides $ savings there are actually a lot other benefits to leasing.


Hope this helps