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Yes indeed. We all know how much progress has been made in R compound rubber, but still... That Goodyear 3R is a Trofeo equivalent, maybe just a tick slower, but it's not Cup 2R performance. So yeah, truly spectacular lap.
Even looks like a trofeo - I've used Cup2 R and am not blown away by them - they lose their grip pretty quickly and revert to something close to a Cup2 - in fact the sidewalls still have the same feel e.g. from fast strights into tight left or right handers there is a lot of squirm due to the "street soft" sidewalls.
Would have been good to see the drivers swap - but I would suggest the 3R is a better tire than the Max 2 and that is a substantial part of the difference.
If I put stickies on my 720S it would demolish my GT3 RS (in OEM form). However, when you start setting any of these cars as true track cars/race cars the equations change very quickly. The big advantage Porsche delivers is high performance reliability (my penchant is for multiday events) and that is not insignificant e.g. to be in the running you have to finish in the first instance and set good times in the second.
The other point to note, tire compounds and design have come a long way and within a group of cars with similar levels of performance - its the tires that decide the day (all else being equal and tire choice is free/open).
Hard to believe the Mac is that much faster, https://fastestlaps.com/tracks lists Randy Pobst being more than 1 second faster in a .1 RS than the 12C at Laguna Seca, not to mention the .2 RS is even faster.
Driver and tires play some role. Jeff would be able to get another 0.5-0.8s out of the RS, I bet. Also, the tires om the Mac are comparable to Cup2Rs, which are 2-3s per lap faster at Laguna compared to the tires on the RS. So here you go - mystery solved. Same tires and same driver Mac would be slightly slower. But that Mac is still crazy fast for an "old" car.
Even looks like a trofeo - I've used Cup2 R and am not blown away by them - they lose their grip pretty quickly and revert to something close to a Cup2 - in fact the sidewalls still have the same feel e.g. from fast strights into tight left or right handers there is a lot of squirm due to the "street soft" sidewalls.
Would have been good to see the drivers swap - but I would suggest the 3R is a better tire than the Max 2 and that is a substantial part of the difference.
If I put stickies on my 720S it would demolish my GT3 RS (in OEM form). However, when you start setting any of these cars as true track cars/race cars the equations change very quickly. The big advantage Porsche delivers is high performance reliability (my penchant is for multiday events) and that is not insignificant e.g. to be in the running you have to finish in the first instance and set good times in the second.
The other point to note, tire compounds and design have come a long way and within a group of cars with similar levels of performance - its the tires that decide the day (all else being equal and tire choice is free/open).
Yeah the Cup 2R go off very quickly, but for the first 2 or 3 sessions nothing will touch them, probably at least a 1 sec per minute advantage over the Cup 2. FWIW, many of the guys I know think the Max is at least the equal of the Cup 2/Trofeo/3R, but opinions do vary on that. Again, I don't see a lot of other Porsche guys lapping at the pace of this 3RS on the Dunlops, and this driver has said he prefers them to the Cup 2. I certainly agree that the tire factor is the biggest differentiator at track days. BTW, McLaren as a marque is extremely well represented at all Bay Area track days, and they often do multi day events with excellent reliability. It's not a garage queen brand by any means.
Yes indeed. We all know how much progress has been made in R compound rubber, but still... That Goodyear 3R is a Trofeo equivalent, maybe just a tick slower, but it's not Cup 2R performance. So yeah, truly spectacular lap.
Actually, Eagle Supercar 3 (not R) is practically the same tire as the Dunlop Race 2 that the RS had, and the Supercar 3R is one step up from both, making it a pretty much Cup2R equivalent. I've seen RS do low 1:31 on Cup2R tires even with some mistakes.
Driver and tires play some role. Jeff would be able to get another 0.5-0.8s out of the RS, I bet. Also, the tires om the Mac are comparable to Cup2Rs, which are 2-3s per lap faster at Laguna compared to the tires on the RS. So here you go - mystery solved. Same tires and same driver Mac would be slightly slower. But that Mac is still crazy fast for an "old" car.
From a number of Mac drivers using the 3R...it's quite similar to the Trofeo, maybe a tick slower, but much less expensive, hence the popularity. Nothing like the performance and wear characteristics of the Cup 2R, which is super quick for maybe 2 or 3 sessions then goes off quickly. The 3R will go a solid 3 track days, so nowhere near as soft and sticky as the Cup 2R.
From a number of Mac drivers using the 3R...it's quite similar to the Trofeo, maybe a tick slower, but much less expensive, hence the popularity. Nothing like the performance and wear characteristics of the Cup 2R, which is super quick for maybe 2 or 3 sessions then goes off quickly. The 3R will go a solid 3 track days, so nowhere near as soft and sticky as the Cup 2R.
My last set of Cup2R lasted exactly 3 sessions, dropped away quickly and were delivering Cup2 times (in my RS). I don't do a lot of track time in my 720S - its a car I decided to keep stock. Having said that on the Corsas I have lapped quicker in the 720S than my times in a 488GTB on trofeos (but fairly worn trofeos).
I know Jeff -1:30.67 in 12c, Serge with RS (1:33.45 with dunlops and 1:31 with cup2r). I track frequently with them and they are personal friends of mine. Serge is on these forums but doesn't like to participate in banter like this. I'll speak on his behalf.
He was 2 seconds faster in the cup2r at Laguna Seca. He actually own the RS record at Laguna. They fall off a cliff after 3 sessions. He couldn't get around me in the 720s in his fourth session and his cup2r time is four seconds faster then me in my 720s time.
The primary reason all of us use goodyear eagle f1 supercar 3r is cost. They are $600 cheaper then Pielli corsas and half price of Trofeos. They are good tires but let's not kid ourself that they are cup2r fast.
After Serge got a taste of 600LT, he put away the .2 RS. He is 1.5 seconds faster in 600LT than his non cup2r time in .2 gt3rs.
Biggest thing happening these days is that it is cheaper to run Mac's from a consumable point of view then the Porsche's (giro discs/pads/goodyear tires) and a lot of very good porsche drivers are moving over to Mac's and they are extremely, extremely competent in track driving.
Another data point about goodyear 3r - the person who started the trend on Mclarens was a person who is very fast with 720s (one second off the Viper ACR factory supported lap record) at Buttonwillow. He picked up 2 seconds from P Zero Corsas by using the goodyear tires (not 2 seconds from trofeos but Corsas). Only 4 cars that I know of at Buttonwillow that have gone below 1:50 in 13cw configuration are: 720s, Pista, 600 LT, Viper ACR (factory driver in lap record).
.................... and a lot of very good porsche drivers are moving over to Mac's and they are extremely, extremely competent in track driving..
Yep no question about it and MSO are prepared to offer some serious support too.........big difference in attitude, MSO are hungry whereas Porsche MS have become lazy and indifferent.
Originally Posted by Gary(SF)
That is going to be a monster on a whole 'nother level...Senna-like in all likelihood.
Some good off the shelf packages available too e.g. pro packs etc
There seems to be a good consensus on the 2Rs - they're a PB tire and thats really it. A Michellin rep told me they're basically a Cup2 with a 2mm or 3mm sticky screen - when thats done its over.
I certainly could understand why someone would go from a RS to a 600LT...I came to the conclusion sometime ago that my RS is a tool allbeit a very good one.
Both 600LT and .2RS are pretty evenly matched and I think it comes down to track and driver.
The MP4 12C is still a ferociously fast car despite it age.
I wonder what the difference would be with equal tires?
I am finally getting my 600LT delivered next week and the previous owner put aftermarket wheels and tires on it that are almost the same size as my GT3RS (20x9 front, 21x12 rear), only they are Pilot Sport 4's instead of Cup 2's. I'd be curious if I could fit the same tires as my GT3RS on those wheels, being they are 1/2" more narrow? I have an extra set of Cup 2's for my GT3RS that I could mount.
That would be an interesting test.
All that being said, I really don't care all that much about lap times between two different cars. I'm much more interested in my own lap time getting better on the same car, and the overall experience.
I wonder what the difference would be with equal tires?
I am finally getting my 600LT delivered next week and the previous owner put aftermarket wheels and tires on it that are almost the same size as my GT3RS (20x9 front, 21x12 rear), only they are Pilot Sport 4's instead of Cup 2's. I'd be curious if I could fit the same tires as my GT3RS on those wheels, being they are 1/2" more narrow? I have an extra set of Cup 2's for my GT3RS that I could mount.
That would be an interesting test.
All that being said, I really don't care all that much about lap times between two different cars. I'm much more interested in my own lap time getting better on the same car, and the overall experience.
Why not try 20/20 in pista size and get the cup2r from Ferrari instead? The tires were designed for a very similar car to the 600lt, the gt3 rs is much different, from aero, to where weight is and how much weight it has, pista is practically the same as the 600lt from any angle you look, aero, corner weights, weight placement, damping, etc so they will work as they should.
Why not try 20/20 in pista size and get the cup2r from Ferrari instead? The tires were designed for a very similar car to the 600lt, the gt3 rs is much different, from aero, to where weight is and how much weight it has, pista is practically the same as the 600lt from any angle you look, aero, corner weights, weight placement, damping, etc so they will work as they should.
I could do that, but just thinking what I could fit on the wheels I already have and since I have the spare set of Cup 2's. It's probably not a big enough deal to me to buy a whole new set of wheels and tires, just more of a curiosity thing for me.
I wonder what the difference would be with equal tires?
I am finally getting my 600LT delivered next week and the previous owner put aftermarket wheels and tires on it that are almost the same size as my GT3RS (20x9 front, 21x12 rear), only they are Pilot Sport 4's instead of Cup 2's. I'd be curious if I could fit the same tires as my GT3RS on those wheels, being they are 1/2" more narrow? I have an extra set of Cup 2's for my GT3RS that I could mount.
That would be an interesting test.
All that being said, I really don't care all that much about lap times between two different cars. I'm much more interested in my own lap time getting better on the same car, and the overall experience.
I'm sure the Mac would pick up time. Tires are huge. However, we are talking stock car comparisons.
What if we put Dundon headers on the .2 3RS?
05-14-2020, 10:43 PM
