OT: AMG GT R
12-21-2016, 08:07 PM
#181
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
Posts: 12,937
Received 4,269 Likes
on
2,436 Posts
I just find it unfair to write off a car for setting a faster lap time because it uses different, and in some respects better, tires. There are costs associated with those tires and if the competition uses worse performing tires they only have themselves to blame. I agree about the importance of tires but the only way to fairly compare a car is having it in the state it was in when it left the factory.
My guess is that less than half of the lap time delta between the GT-R and RS is due to the tires. We don't yet even have lap time for the GT-R with a factory driver and moderate ambient temp.
12-21-2016, 08:36 PM
#183
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
Posts: 12,937
Received 4,269 Likes
on
2,436 Posts
Definitely would be interesting to compare the cars with equal tires to isolate chassis, aero, suspension, etc. differences. And I just meant in general it seems like some people are criticizing it for using better tires.
I mean, one car may use lighter weight oil which increases usable power but does that mean every car should use the same oil weight?
Tire selection, rotor material, brake pad material, bushing material, ceramic bearings, oil weight, lightweight alternator, etc. are all legitimate ways of making a car faster and I think the variety makes things more interesting. If every car used the same stuff I think things would start to get boring.
Speaking of drivers and conditions, I think that is really what people should complain about. Will be interesting to see what these cars do with the same driver in similar conditions.
But, in any case, do lap times really matter? Or is the experience while setting those lap times the truly important aspect?
I mean, one car may use lighter weight oil which increases usable power but does that mean every car should use the same oil weight?
Tire selection, rotor material, brake pad material, bushing material, ceramic bearings, oil weight, lightweight alternator, etc. are all legitimate ways of making a car faster and I think the variety makes things more interesting. If every car used the same stuff I think things would start to get boring.
Speaking of drivers and conditions, I think that is really what people should complain about. Will be interesting to see what these cars do with the same driver in similar conditions.
But, in any case, do lap times really matter? Or is the experience while setting those lap times the truly important aspect?
I don't think different drivers make much difference if we're talking good pro drivers - they'll all be close to each other. Different conditions certainly matter though.
For track junkies, I'd say that both lap times and the experience matter. For driving only on the road, I personally wouldn't consider a GT3, RS, or GT-R.
12-21-2016, 09:13 PM
#184
Drifting
CJ posted something recently - couldn't find it - about some of the secret sauce in the AMG GT R, likely gleaned from Bill Riley and other race connections he has.
The car has a very sophisticated multi-level (9, in fact) traction control system (think about GM's Performance Traction Management system as well) that is a significant component of the car's overall lap performance.
Compare that to Porsche's simple TC and ESC on or off operation; it's a shortcoming, even with the 911 layout's inherent power on traction advantage. The factory GT3 R race car, which competes against the AMG GT3 race car in a variety of series, including IMSA next year, is widely known to be lacking in the traction control finesse department versus the competition.
The car has a very sophisticated multi-level (9, in fact) traction control system (think about GM's Performance Traction Management system as well) that is a significant component of the car's overall lap performance.
Compare that to Porsche's simple TC and ESC on or off operation; it's a shortcoming, even with the 911 layout's inherent power on traction advantage. The factory GT3 R race car, which competes against the AMG GT3 race car in a variety of series, including IMSA next year, is widely known to be lacking in the traction control finesse department versus the competition.
12-21-2016, 11:14 PM
#186
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
A company can use any tires they want and I think the only fair comparison is using the tires a company intended the car to come with. I do not see why a car should be written off for using better tires. It would seem reasonable for a performance car to come with the best tires that meet the requirements outlined by the designers.
Using the same tires can provide some interesting information but I think it skews the comparison in such a way that you are no longer really comparing the two cars based on how the engineers intended them to perform. If one car uses worse tires then all blames rests on that car's manufacturer for not using better tires.
Using the same tires can provide some interesting information but I think it skews the comparison in such a way that you are no longer really comparing the two cars based on how the engineers intended them to perform. If one car uses worse tires then all blames rests on that car's manufacturer for not using better tires.
But tires can be changed (assuming correct sizes are available) and, while perhaps optimized for a particular tire, these cars generally work fine with tires of different grip levels.
Also, the grippier tires tend to not last as long, so the comparison isn't really fair if an extra grippy version of the Cup 2 lasts only two days whereas a less grippy version lasts say six or more days. I personally am not interested in paying for an incremental increase in grip if the tire operating cost increases by a factor of 2x or more.
Also, the grippier tires tend to not last as long, so the comparison isn't really fair if an extra grippy version of the Cup 2 lasts only two days whereas a less grippy version lasts say six or more days. I personally am not interested in paying for an incremental increase in grip if the tire operating cost increases by a factor of 2x or more.
The point with lap time is to compare cars in stock form. If Mercedes decides to outfit its cars with one particular type of tire, as long as it is std equipment for customers who purchase the car, then it's really up to Porsche to make up for that difference in its OEM rubber compound for the GT3 RS (or whatever comparable car may be at issue).
Once you start altering the fixed variable in a stock, OEM setup, then all bets are off and an "apples to apples" comparison is nearly impossible, if not a complete fallacy.
12-22-2016, 09:59 AM
#188
Nordschleife Master
It's nice to know other car makers and their stats but seriously, how many true Porsche Nuts would change or leave Porsche for another car maker just for a sec or two a lap around the Ring?
12-22-2016, 01:57 PM
#189
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
In all seriousness, I do care about the Ring time, but I care more about how it feels while it's going about its business of crushing the Ring. It would be a bad move for Porsche to ignore the competition, "because they're Porsche and nobody can steal their customers".
I am open to other options that are faster, cheaper, have hydraulic steering, and Euro Delivery. I'm not ready to jump ship yet, but never say never (they might be able to convince me more with a 7speed dogleg manual from A-M)...
The competition from AMG (if it sells well) will only make Porsche better and offer better value (hopefully).
12-22-2016, 05:38 PM
#190
Nordschleife Master
12-22-2016, 08:22 PM
#191
Agree with this sentiment completely as it relates to the way street cars are built and perform. However, to my knowledge Porsche has been losing out to Mercedes in GT3 racing as of late (glad to be corrected here). Is that a byproduct of the teams running Porsches, Porsche Motorsport not developing the cars like Mercedes is (could be a resource problem), or does Mercedes genuinely have some type of advantage that also translates to their road going track cars?
12-22-2016, 09:25 PM
#192
Drifting
Agree with this sentiment completely as it relates to the way street cars are built and perform. However, to my knowledge Porsche has been losing out to Mercedes in GT3 racing as of late (glad to be corrected here). Is that a byproduct of the teams running Porsches, Porsche Motorsport not developing the cars like Mercedes is (could be a resource problem), or does Mercedes genuinely have some type of advantage that also translates to their road going track cars?
Both manufacturers offer GT3 spec race cars that race all over the world in a variety of series. In the 2016 IMSA season, several teams campaigned the 911 GT3 R race car, although many of them are not returning with a GT3 R:
Weathertech:
Alex Job campaigned GT3 R in 2016
Riley campaigned MB in 2017
Weathertech, the title sponsor, pulled out of IMSA mid-season in a BOP-related kerfuffle after Road America. Shortly beforehand they terminated Leh Keen, a good friend of mine, under mysterious but (allegedly) unrelated circumstances.
Heart of Racing
Alex Job campaigned GT3 R in 2016
Not returning in 2017
Heart of Racing had the benefit of two pro-level drivers who were both silver rated, and they had strong pace throughout the bulk of the season, although quality results often eluded them.
Black Swan
Campaigned GT3 R in 2016
Pulled out mid-season; uncertain if they will return in 2017
Mercedes didn't race in IMSA in 2016; they are widely considered the car to beat in 2017, however.
The GT3 R suffered from setup issues that made it difficult to compete against other GT3/GTD legal cars with a compromised setup that suited both the pro and amateur drivers that the GTD class mandates.
I believe that Porsche has spread its resources somewhat thin and was focused moreso on LMP1 than GTE/GTLM or GT3/GTD in 2016. Going forward they will be focused on LMP1 and GTE/GTLM with the all-new RSR.
12-23-2016, 03:48 AM
#193
Platinum Dealership
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
CJ posted something recently - couldn't find it - about some of the secret sauce in the AMG GT R, likely gleaned from Bill Riley and other race connections he has.
The car has a very sophisticated multi-level (9, in fact) traction control system (think about GM's Performance Traction Management system as well) that is a significant component of the car's overall lap performance.
Compare that to Porsche's simple TC and ESC on or off operation; it's a shortcoming, even with the 911 layout's inherent power on traction advantage. The factory GT3 R race car, which competes against the AMG GT3 race car in a variety of series, including IMSA next year, is widely known to be lacking in the traction control finesse department versus the competition.
The car has a very sophisticated multi-level (9, in fact) traction control system (think about GM's Performance Traction Management system as well) that is a significant component of the car's overall lap performance.
Compare that to Porsche's simple TC and ESC on or off operation; it's a shortcoming, even with the 911 layout's inherent power on traction advantage. The factory GT3 R race car, which competes against the AMG GT3 race car in a variety of series, including IMSA next year, is widely known to be lacking in the traction control finesse department versus the competition.
The GTR is incredibly sophisticated.
it has the following features:
Active louvers for active front end aero
rear wheel steering
gradient-based traction control mapping
monster torque from a medium sized engine
incredible bucket seats
bad *** rear diffuser downforce
rear wing for downforce
and the winner is...
THE CAR HAS AN F DUCT for Craps sake!!! so it has the ability to actively shape and control aero drag but functions similar to the P1's race mode DRS button. between this and the 9 mode TCS...it's WAY ahead of the 911 technically.
12-23-2016, 05:18 AM
#194
It would seem like Mercedes is finally using their racing to translate into road cars.
In the past, you'd see Mercedes get into racing but their roadcars were still boring and for the same audience but things are changing. Now we just need BMW to get it's act together.
In the past, you'd see Mercedes get into racing but their roadcars were still boring and for the same audience but things are changing. Now we just need BMW to get it's act together.
12-23-2016, 02:28 PM
#195
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: West Vancouver and San Francisco
Posts: 4,238
Received 1,196 Likes
on
591 Posts
As long as the tires used on the GT R for this lap time was the OEM spec, then it's really a non-issue.
The point with lap time is to compare cars in stock form. If Mercedes decides to outfit its cars with one particular type of tire, as long as it is std equipment for customers who purchase the car, then it's really up to Porsche to make up for that difference in its OEM rubber compound for the GT3 RS (or whatever comparable car may be at issue).
Once you start altering the fixed variable in a stock, OEM setup, then all bets are off and an "apples to apples" comparison is nearly impossible, if not a complete fallacy.
The point with lap time is to compare cars in stock form. If Mercedes decides to outfit its cars with one particular type of tire, as long as it is std equipment for customers who purchase the car, then it's really up to Porsche to make up for that difference in its OEM rubber compound for the GT3 RS (or whatever comparable car may be at issue).
Once you start altering the fixed variable in a stock, OEM setup, then all bets are off and an "apples to apples" comparison is nearly impossible, if not a complete fallacy.
Imagine if Porsche sold a "GT3 S", which is the same as GT3 but has Hoosiers and turns test lap times 3 seconds per minute faster than GT3 and costs $50K more because it's so much faster. Everyone with common sense would throw up all over it because you can buy hoosiers on your own if that's what you want, and it's the same car otherwise.
Or let's say Car A is sold on MPSS and does 1 minute laps, and Car B is sold on Premacy and does 1:05 minute laps. You would use either car on RE71Rs exclusively because that makes most sense, and on those tires Car B is actually 2 secs per lap faster than Car A. So which car is faster? Of course Car B.
That's not to say GT R is a great car - it probably is because GT S is already very good. We'll see. I just do not get this stuff about OEM tires defining how good the car is.