911R Driving Impressions
11-27-2016, 02:14 PM
#136
Instructor
Thread Starter
Thanks for further insightful comments, BusDriver. You've made me very keen to try RWS. I've not had a chance to take up my PEC Le Mans offer (from buying the GT4 in France) but will do so next year before it expires. I imagine the R is too rare to be on the fleet but hope to try RWS in a GT3.
It sounds like RWS with rear-engine could be the ultimate performance configuration (mid-engined agility with rear-engined traction) if only space could be found for a rear diffuser.
With so much front grip do you have any difficulty judging maximum corner speed or does it just make it easier to play with the tail?
I found the rear of the GT4 would snap quickly in the wet (but then snap back into line equally quickly after getting off the power). I assume the R is more progressive with the mass further back?
I agree with your comment on the GT4's exhaust. The engine note is almost non-existant at low revs and always less musical than a GT3's so I drove with the windows down and exhaust button on, which produced an emotive burble, crackle and pop at low revs and a remarkably loud and aggressive bark at higher revs.
Did you resist the temptation of stripes on the R to maintain full subtlety? I think my choice would be GT Silver sans decals. I loved my 996.1 GT3 in Arctic Silver, which from memory was similar to GT Silver and much more substantial than the current glitzy Rhodium.
Would you say the manicness and rawness of the R is similar to the 997 RS 4.0's? Out of curiosity do you/did you own a 4.0?
I wonder why Porsche didn't strip the same amount of sound deadening out of the 991 RS. As the most track oriented model you would expect it to be the most raw.
It sounds like RWS with rear-engine could be the ultimate performance configuration (mid-engined agility with rear-engined traction) if only space could be found for a rear diffuser.
With so much front grip do you have any difficulty judging maximum corner speed or does it just make it easier to play with the tail?
I found the rear of the GT4 would snap quickly in the wet (but then snap back into line equally quickly after getting off the power). I assume the R is more progressive with the mass further back?
I agree with your comment on the GT4's exhaust. The engine note is almost non-existant at low revs and always less musical than a GT3's so I drove with the windows down and exhaust button on, which produced an emotive burble, crackle and pop at low revs and a remarkably loud and aggressive bark at higher revs.
Did you resist the temptation of stripes on the R to maintain full subtlety? I think my choice would be GT Silver sans decals. I loved my 996.1 GT3 in Arctic Silver, which from memory was similar to GT Silver and much more substantial than the current glitzy Rhodium.
Would you say the manicness and rawness of the R is similar to the 997 RS 4.0's? Out of curiosity do you/did you own a 4.0?
I wonder why Porsche didn't strip the same amount of sound deadening out of the 991 RS. As the most track oriented model you would expect it to be the most raw.
On the road, I leave sufficient margin so ultimate entry speed is not going to happen. But the 911R has sufficient torque and engine response to properly light up the rears even if entry speed is well short of the car’s capability. Lots of fun to spin up the rears without the commitment and risk of banzai corner entry. Although the mid-engined GT4 is a better balanced car than the rear-engined 911R, the 911R’s more lumpy weight distribution makes it more fun to drive. Managing the 911’s dynamic weight transfer adds an extra level of engagement even if it doesn’t make the car any quicker, somewhat analogous to how a manual gearbox adds engagement over a PDK.
Having driven it on the track in the rain, I would agree that the GT4 is snappy at the limit in the rain. I suspect that the 911R would be even snappier in the rain – but cannot say for sure as I have not driven the 911R hard in the rain. And, rain handling has a lot to do with the poor wet grip of the Michelin Cup 2 tires.
My R is in a subtle color with color-matched stripes. Sorry for being coy with specifics, but I am trying to remain private. As there was a substantial gap of 6-8 months between configuring the car and taking delivery, I had forgotten my thinking on the spec and was underwhelmed to see what appeared to be a nice Carrera S when I went to pick up my 911R. But after having driven it a bit, the understated wingless appearance is one of my favorite aspects of the car and very much in keeping with its road oriented hot rod ethos. The car gets little attention from anyone except the rare few that know what a 911R is – the car is a “truth serum.”
As far as the 4.0 997 RS, I do not have one. My comments are limited to what was immediately obvious from an afternoon driving a friend’s 4.0 RS back to back with the 911R. The 911R’s handling advantage (RWS), steering feel disadvantage, more compliant ride, freer revving more bombastic engine, better traction (tires) were apparent. But the biggest difference of all to me is the road oriented, fun, wild, lightweight, nimble hot rod feel of the 911R compared to the more serious track car feel of the 4.0 – stiffer suspension, giant wings, heavy controls, etc. To me, the 4.0 RS is also now a previous generation track car and its manual gearbox only underlines that. However as a collector, the 4.0 RS remains the ultimate 911 RS - I will take one in white with white wheels, but just wouldn't swap my R for it. Obviously, those are my thoughts and my taste.
Hope to hear other people’s thoughts and views…
Last edited by BusDriver; 11-27-2016 at 02:34 PM.
11-27-2016, 08:42 PM
#137
More great reading, BusDriver. I only had a couple of good alpine drives in the RS 4.0 before having to leave for the other side of the world so haven't tried it in the wet yet. It also needs new tyres before I do. I like the idea of something a bit less grippy for the road than Cup 2s to be able to approach the limits more easily but they are the only current tyres homologated so I'm concerned about insurance implications if I try anything else.
Do you know if the even freer revving aspect of the R results from the engine design, lower reciprocating masses or an even lighter flywheel? Do you know how the flywheel weights compare?
Like BusDriver said, can we hear some more experiences from others?
Do you know if the even freer revving aspect of the R results from the engine design, lower reciprocating masses or an even lighter flywheel? Do you know how the flywheel weights compare?
Like BusDriver said, can we hear some more experiences from others?
11-29-2016, 04:41 PM
#138
Rennlist Member
for me no car till now was so hard to revmatch as the 3.8RS is.
Didn´t drove an R neither a 4.0 up till now... always convert your above written statements for 991RS vs. 997.2GT3RS in terms of engine and chassis.
btw: thank you for those nice lines busdriver and turbofree!
i would choose 991R (991GT3RS in my case) for a whole weekend trip in south-tirol.
exploring mountain passes for fun.
stopping for some pasta and a wine here and there.
enjoing life.
wifey on codriver.
i would choose 997 4.0 (997.2GT3RS in my case) for a short, challenging ride on back roads near home.
exploring each tarmac anomaly in corners at 100mph.
stopping for a cigarette.
enjoing the full intense / near-death-experiences.
a virtual 40 year old motivating Walter Röhrl on codriver.
What says the scale in real with comparable spec?
997 4.0 vs. 991R
Didn´t drove an R neither a 4.0 up till now... always convert your above written statements for 991RS vs. 997.2GT3RS in terms of engine and chassis.
btw: thank you for those nice lines busdriver and turbofree!
i would choose 991R (991GT3RS in my case) for a whole weekend trip in south-tirol.
exploring mountain passes for fun.
stopping for some pasta and a wine here and there.
enjoing life.
wifey on codriver.
i would choose 997 4.0 (997.2GT3RS in my case) for a short, challenging ride on back roads near home.
exploring each tarmac anomaly in corners at 100mph.
stopping for a cigarette.
enjoing the full intense / near-death-experiences.
a virtual 40 year old motivating Walter Röhrl on codriver.
What says the scale in real with comparable spec?
997 4.0 vs. 991R
11-29-2016, 08:29 PM
#139
Joker, your English is vastly better than my German but I'm afraid I can't understand this sentence. Could you rephrase it? Or write it in German and I'll Google translate it.
An interesting comparison between the two generations of RS, thank you. I've not driven any version of 991 so can't comment.
It would also be interesting to hear from those who have driven the cars we have been discussing who have also recently driven earlier models of GT3/RS (including air-cooled). Last year I had very brief drive in an RS 2.7 touring. It was only enough to get a general impression and perhaps it was a little tired but I was surprised by the softness of steering/suspension/throttle response and sound. It certainly didn't tempt me out of a GT3.
An interesting comparison between the two generations of RS, thank you. I've not driven any version of 991 so can't comment.
It would also be interesting to hear from those who have driven the cars we have been discussing who have also recently driven earlier models of GT3/RS (including air-cooled). Last year I had very brief drive in an RS 2.7 touring. It was only enough to get a general impression and perhaps it was a little tired but I was surprised by the softness of steering/suspension/throttle response and sound. It certainly didn't tempt me out of a GT3.
11-30-2016, 12:39 AM
#140
Since you asked.....
There are a few of us that have all the cars. Not me. I can only speak from my rare (and privileged) experiences of getting in one and getting out of another back to back on the same road and the same test drive. Please remember these are just my impressions. I'm not the most proficient or experienced driver on RL. Further, my impressions are not meant to insult anyone. I'm also taking money, investment and value out of the equation. This is about the cars.
'11 997.2 3.8 RS v. '74 3.0 RS - The '74 RS is a fantastic 911. The gear box is a bit primitive for my taste but the feel and performance of the car is special. It's much more than a 911S or even 2.7 RS. It's a true street legal race car. But I'll take the 2011 3.8. Whenever I got out of the 3.8 I'd turn back, look at it and ask myself "how could it be that good?"
'92 964 3.6 RS (USA Cup) v. 993 3.8 R - I like the 964. The 964 I drove had been my practice race car for many years and was then owned by a collector friend when we exercised the cars. The 993 was no faster in a straight line despite a displacement advantage. It also seemed "softer" than the 964. The 964 was more visceral and pure. There is just something about a 964 RS..........Fun.
'92 964 3.6 RS (USA Cup) v. 997.2 3.8 RS.- I love the purity, weight and immediacy of the 964. But it can't compare to the 997.2. Again the 997.2 is just so, so good. It's very fast and works so well. It's a serious car. The 964 also has some bump steer issues. When driving both cars back to back (a number of times) I never walked away wanting to trade my 3.8 to have my 964 RS back.
'11 997.2 3.8 RS v. '11 997.2 GT2 RS - The impressive thing about the GT2 RS is not only how ridiculously fast it is but how incredibly driveable it is. Take it to the supermarket, then pounce on it (in a straight line) as if you were on the Mulsanne Straight. But my guess is that this car can get away from you really quickly. I'm not a Turbo guy. I'll take the NA 3.8.
And then there's the 911R. I first drove the car last April in Germany. The specifications for the car, that is, a lighter 991, NA, MT, no wing was my wish list for a modern car. But my expectations were tempered by the hype, the size of the 991 and the lack of availability. When I questioned if the car was simply a lighter more powerful MT 911 I was invited to take a ride. Kind of like "I'll show you." And so he did. The pride taken in the development of the car was very apparent.
The spryness was immediately noticeable from the passenger seat even at very low speeds. It was explained to me that the car was engineered to be responsive and fun at city speeds. After a spirited and memorable drive through the countryside we pulled over and it was my turn. I can't speak about power. I was jet lagged and an invited guest. I wasn't going to risk a 000 911 R. What I can tell you is the is car alive. The immediacy of the motor, the feel of lightness, the precise steering reminded me of a modern 964 RS.
I got out of the car with the same excitement I had as a boy first riding a motorcycle or my first drive in a 911. My opinion is that the R is certainly one of the great 911s'. It may also be one of the great sports cars ever.
'11 997.2 3.8 RS v. '74 3.0 RS - The '74 RS is a fantastic 911. The gear box is a bit primitive for my taste but the feel and performance of the car is special. It's much more than a 911S or even 2.7 RS. It's a true street legal race car. But I'll take the 2011 3.8. Whenever I got out of the 3.8 I'd turn back, look at it and ask myself "how could it be that good?"
'92 964 3.6 RS (USA Cup) v. 993 3.8 R - I like the 964. The 964 I drove had been my practice race car for many years and was then owned by a collector friend when we exercised the cars. The 993 was no faster in a straight line despite a displacement advantage. It also seemed "softer" than the 964. The 964 was more visceral and pure. There is just something about a 964 RS..........Fun.
'92 964 3.6 RS (USA Cup) v. 997.2 3.8 RS.- I love the purity, weight and immediacy of the 964. But it can't compare to the 997.2. Again the 997.2 is just so, so good. It's very fast and works so well. It's a serious car. The 964 also has some bump steer issues. When driving both cars back to back (a number of times) I never walked away wanting to trade my 3.8 to have my 964 RS back.
'11 997.2 3.8 RS v. '11 997.2 GT2 RS - The impressive thing about the GT2 RS is not only how ridiculously fast it is but how incredibly driveable it is. Take it to the supermarket, then pounce on it (in a straight line) as if you were on the Mulsanne Straight. But my guess is that this car can get away from you really quickly. I'm not a Turbo guy. I'll take the NA 3.8.
And then there's the 911R. I first drove the car last April in Germany. The specifications for the car, that is, a lighter 991, NA, MT, no wing was my wish list for a modern car. But my expectations were tempered by the hype, the size of the 991 and the lack of availability. When I questioned if the car was simply a lighter more powerful MT 911 I was invited to take a ride. Kind of like "I'll show you." And so he did. The pride taken in the development of the car was very apparent.
The spryness was immediately noticeable from the passenger seat even at very low speeds. It was explained to me that the car was engineered to be responsive and fun at city speeds. After a spirited and memorable drive through the countryside we pulled over and it was my turn. I can't speak about power. I was jet lagged and an invited guest. I wasn't going to risk a 000 911 R. What I can tell you is the is car alive. The immediacy of the motor, the feel of lightness, the precise steering reminded me of a modern 964 RS.
I got out of the car with the same excitement I had as a boy first riding a motorcycle or my first drive in a 911. My opinion is that the R is certainly one of the great 911s'. It may also be one of the great sports cars ever.
11-30-2016, 01:57 AM
#141
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
^ wonderful, simple and honest. thank you for the summary.
11-30-2016, 08:12 AM
#143
Wonderful variety of comparisons, Suitcase, but you've left us in suspense: what about R vs 997.2 3.8 RS?
One of my worst decisions ever was to not buy an original, unrestored white-with-gold RS 3.0 in Sydney for AUD 190k in the late '90s.
One of my worst decisions ever was to not buy an original, unrestored white-with-gold RS 3.0 in Sydney for AUD 190k in the late '90s.
11-30-2016, 08:47 AM
#144
Suspense
I too am in suspense. My 3.8 was a true "lightweight." No A/C, radio delete, Lithium Battery, and a no expense spared order to make it light. The car was just so good it's hard to imagine a better sports car. But we already know that there's at least one better. I always wanted to take out my friends 997 4.0 v. 3.8 but I left Colorado and took the 3.8 RS with me. I'm told the drive of the 4.0 is very similar to the 3.8 but the 4.0 has substantially more low end torque. I'm sure someone out there can chime in????
Very recently I sold the 3.8. But I do have a fair amount of experience in that car. When I drove the R in Germany I had little reason to believe I'd get one. But this time the car gods were on my side. My R landed at the port yesterday. More to come.
Very recently I sold the 3.8. But I do have a fair amount of experience in that car. When I drove the R in Germany I had little reason to believe I'd get one. But this time the car gods were on my side. My R landed at the port yesterday. More to come.
11-30-2016, 09:09 AM
#146
I haven't driven a 3.8 RS to compare. However as far as the 997 4.0 is concerned, at about 4,000 rpm it takes off like a turbo has just spooled up but the sound is definitely natmo and so loud it's a wonder it's legal. That's with the exhaust button off. With the flaps open the torque builds earlier and more linearly and the sound is all there from the start.
11-30-2016, 09:26 AM
#147
Lightweight Order
It's my understanding that my 3.8 was the lightest in the US. And I thought very seriously about a similar "lightweight" order for the R.
My first question in Germany was, "Is my 3.8 so good simply because of the delete, delete order?" He was familiar with my particular car. The answer was no. It was explained to me that a modern car is not a '74. The cockpit temperature of a liquid cooled car is substantially higher than that of an air cooled car. There is lots of hot liquid running through the car effectively creating radiant heat. I was further told that much has been done to minimize any performance issues relating to A/C. We also discussed actually driving the car as opposed to collecting the car. I will drive my car and I'm living in Florida.
My car also has a radio. We discussed the idea of removing the PCM screen and replacing it with the shelf leaving an Ipod connection. We all know that'd look cool.
PS. I was also told that the R "deserves" the lightweight battery.
My first question in Germany was, "Is my 3.8 so good simply because of the delete, delete order?" He was familiar with my particular car. The answer was no. It was explained to me that a modern car is not a '74. The cockpit temperature of a liquid cooled car is substantially higher than that of an air cooled car. There is lots of hot liquid running through the car effectively creating radiant heat. I was further told that much has been done to minimize any performance issues relating to A/C. We also discussed actually driving the car as opposed to collecting the car. I will drive my car and I'm living in Florida.
My car also has a radio. We discussed the idea of removing the PCM screen and replacing it with the shelf leaving an Ipod connection. We all know that'd look cool.
PS. I was also told that the R "deserves" the lightweight battery.
11-30-2016, 10:29 AM
#148
Originally Posted by Suitcase
There are a few of us that have all the cars. Not me. I can only speak from my rare (and privileged) experiences of getting in one and getting out of another back to back on the same road and the same test drive. Please remember these are just my impressions. I'm not the most proficient or experienced driver on RL. Further, my impressions are not meant to insult anyone. I'm also taking money, investment and value out of the equation. This is about the cars.
'11 997.2 3.8 RS v. '74 3.0 RS - The '74 RS is a fantastic 911. The gear box is a bit primitive for my taste but the feel and performance of the car is special. It's much more than a 911S or even 2.7 RS. It's a true street legal race car. But I'll take the 2011 3.8. Whenever I got out of the 3.8 I'd turn back, look at it and ask myself "how could it be that good?"
'92 964 3.6 RS (USA Cup) v. 993 3.8 R - I like the 964. The 964 I drove had been my practice race car for many years and was then owned by a collector friend when we exercised the cars. The 993 was no faster in a straight line despite a displacement advantage. It also seemed "softer" than the 964. The 964 was more visceral and pure. There is just something about a 964 RS..........Fun.
'92 964 3.6 RS (USA Cup) v. 997.2 3.8 RS.- I love the purity, weight and immediacy of the 964. But it can't compare to the 997.2. Again the 997.2 is just so, so good. It's very fast and works so well. It's a serious car. The 964 also has some bump steer issues. When driving both cars back to back (a number of times) I never walked away wanting to trade my 3.8 to have my 964 RS back.
'11 997.2 3.8 RS v. '11 997.2 GT2 RS - The impressive thing about the GT2 RS is not only how ridiculously fast it is but how incredibly driveable it is. Take it to the supermarket, then pounce on it (in a straight line) as if you were on the Mulsanne Straight. But my guess is that this car can get away from you really quickly. I'm not a Turbo guy. I'll take the NA 3.8.
And then there's the 911R. I first drove the car last April in Germany. The specifications for the car, that is, a lighter 991, NA, MT, no wing was my wish list for a modern car. But my expectations were tempered by the hype, the size of the 991 and the lack of availability. When I questioned if the car was simply a lighter more powerful MT 911 I was invited to take a ride. Kind of like "I'll show you." And so he did. The pride taken in the development of the car was very apparent.
The spryness was immediately noticeable from the passenger seat even at very low speeds. It was explained to me that the car was engineered to be responsive and fun at city speeds. After a spirited and memorable drive through the countryside we pulled over and it was my turn. I can't speak about power. I was jet lagged and an invited guest. I wasn't going to risk a 000 911 R. What I can tell you is the is car alive. The immediacy of the motor, the feel of lightness, the precise steering reminded me of a modern 964 RS.
I got out of the car with the same excitement I had as a boy first riding a motorcycle or my first drive in a 911. My opinion is that the R is certainly one of the great 911s'. It may also be one of the great sports cars ever.
'11 997.2 3.8 RS v. '74 3.0 RS - The '74 RS is a fantastic 911. The gear box is a bit primitive for my taste but the feel and performance of the car is special. It's much more than a 911S or even 2.7 RS. It's a true street legal race car. But I'll take the 2011 3.8. Whenever I got out of the 3.8 I'd turn back, look at it and ask myself "how could it be that good?"
'92 964 3.6 RS (USA Cup) v. 993 3.8 R - I like the 964. The 964 I drove had been my practice race car for many years and was then owned by a collector friend when we exercised the cars. The 993 was no faster in a straight line despite a displacement advantage. It also seemed "softer" than the 964. The 964 was more visceral and pure. There is just something about a 964 RS..........Fun.
'92 964 3.6 RS (USA Cup) v. 997.2 3.8 RS.- I love the purity, weight and immediacy of the 964. But it can't compare to the 997.2. Again the 997.2 is just so, so good. It's very fast and works so well. It's a serious car. The 964 also has some bump steer issues. When driving both cars back to back (a number of times) I never walked away wanting to trade my 3.8 to have my 964 RS back.
'11 997.2 3.8 RS v. '11 997.2 GT2 RS - The impressive thing about the GT2 RS is not only how ridiculously fast it is but how incredibly driveable it is. Take it to the supermarket, then pounce on it (in a straight line) as if you were on the Mulsanne Straight. But my guess is that this car can get away from you really quickly. I'm not a Turbo guy. I'll take the NA 3.8.
And then there's the 911R. I first drove the car last April in Germany. The specifications for the car, that is, a lighter 991, NA, MT, no wing was my wish list for a modern car. But my expectations were tempered by the hype, the size of the 991 and the lack of availability. When I questioned if the car was simply a lighter more powerful MT 911 I was invited to take a ride. Kind of like "I'll show you." And so he did. The pride taken in the development of the car was very apparent.
The spryness was immediately noticeable from the passenger seat even at very low speeds. It was explained to me that the car was engineered to be responsive and fun at city speeds. After a spirited and memorable drive through the countryside we pulled over and it was my turn. I can't speak about power. I was jet lagged and an invited guest. I wasn't going to risk a 000 911 R. What I can tell you is the is car alive. The immediacy of the motor, the feel of lightness, the precise steering reminded me of a modern 964 RS.
I got out of the car with the same excitement I had as a boy first riding a motorcycle or my first drive in a 911. My opinion is that the R is certainly one of the great 911s'. It may also be one of the great sports cars ever.
As a owner of 996rs and 997rs4.0 I can't wait to drive the 991R.
And I will admit that I was wrong in my opinion that it was just a parts bin, blah, blah, and regret not trying harder to get one.
Amazing how some cars talk to you more than others.
My 2 RS cars sits on a different continent. I also live in Florida at the moment. So when I get a chance to drive them I always grab the keys for the 997rs4.0! Don't get me wrong. The 996rs is an amazing car. But, similar to you. There is always one that's makes you look back and want to get straight back into the drivers seat and go again.
11-30-2016, 04:57 PM
#149
Rennlist Member
(if the 991R is really just 10kg heavier in a comparable specification than the 4.0 and does so having the same weight than the 997.2GT3RS?)
Nonetheless i would love to feel this 991R magic ones!
Have to remind my 918 buddy that he didn´t ordered one. "not interesting in a parts bin without an aggressive looks"
thank you suitcase for the posts and the glorious picture.
11-30-2016, 06:18 PM
#150
Parts Bin Special
I have friends that have all the important 911s'. Two of those people tell me that the absolute best 911 is the '84 SCRS. If there was ever a "parts bin" special this is it; '69 vintage 917 brakes, 10 year old RSR Suspension, 10 year old 3.0 RSR mechanically injected motor, 935 seats and VW window winders! There were only 20 cars. A brand new one sat in my garage for a couple of years. The unicorn of unicorns. But I never drove it. I sat in it a lot and that's how I know about the window winders. This was a factory Grouppe B rally car and a true parts bin special. Porsche has been smart and cheap over the years with very often spectacular results.
Yes the 911 R was developed from a mix of existing stuff. I first heard it was going to be a narrow body car. It's lighter. But the suspension from the GT3 was already developed for the C4 body. And what's wrong with a naturally aspirated 4 litre 500 Hp + motor that had already been developed for the RS? I love 918 seats. I've even slept in them on occasion in Europe when I picked up my Boxster Spyder.
More apparent to me (as my previous post states) during my short visit to "Mecca" was how proud the people we respect the most feel about this car. Maybe it is a parts bin special. But it's a really, really good one.
Yes the 911 R was developed from a mix of existing stuff. I first heard it was going to be a narrow body car. It's lighter. But the suspension from the GT3 was already developed for the C4 body. And what's wrong with a naturally aspirated 4 litre 500 Hp + motor that had already been developed for the RS? I love 918 seats. I've even slept in them on occasion in Europe when I picked up my Boxster Spyder.
More apparent to me (as my previous post states) during my short visit to "Mecca" was how proud the people we respect the most feel about this car. Maybe it is a parts bin special. But it's a really, really good one.