GTS
10-08-2014, 04:49 PM
#106
Nordschleife Master
FWIW, I'll add that owning or not owning a previous GT3 is not necessarily relevant to whether someone wants a new GT3. I would have loved a prior GT3 but circumstances dictated against one. When I was in a position to buy a GT3, new ones weren't available (I don't like buying used) and I bought a new 997 C2S. The 997.2 GT3 came out 6 months later and I kicked myself for the next 4 years, even though the Carrera was a great car.
Respectfully, I don't think you have facts to back up your suspicions. As Joe points out, almost every 991 GT3 buyer who posts here has had a previous GT3, track experience, Porsche experience, or MT experience with other performance cars. This forum doesn't represent ALL 991 GT3 buyers but it's a pretty good sample.
For those buying a 991 GT3 who weren't previous GT3 owners, there are plenty of reasons why they might not have bought a GT3 earlier. I don't have facts to back up my suspicions either, but my guess is that the availability of PDK is low on the list.
Respectfully, I don't think you have facts to back up your suspicions. As Joe points out, almost every 991 GT3 buyer who posts here has had a previous GT3, track experience, Porsche experience, or MT experience with other performance cars. This forum doesn't represent ALL 991 GT3 buyers but it's a pretty good sample.
For those buying a 991 GT3 who weren't previous GT3 owners, there are plenty of reasons why they might not have bought a GT3 earlier. I don't have facts to back up my suspicions either, but my guess is that the availability of PDK is low on the list.
None of this means I don't want one, my order already locked, but I think to say that this new GT3 by design is not meant to appeal to a much broader audience is falsehood... but youre right, I cant prove it, so just my opinion.
10-08-2014, 04:58 PM
#107
Three Wheelin'
That's fine. People can disagree that **** smells for all I care. A car is the sum of its parts and the 991 GT3 != GT3 - not even close. That doesn't mean it can't be an incredible car in it's own right. I stand by my original statement; the 991 GT3 is more of a 991 GTS-R than a GT3. The entire drivetrain is completely different.
I don't recall stating that the prior GT3's were "race cars" as you put it. ...but there's a clear lineage between the CUP and those cars that isn't present with the 991. The GT3 is purely a marketing term at this point.
I have yet to see someone make a coherent argument against that other than "have you driven one!", "you're an idiot", "wow such ignorance" ....
I don't recall stating that the prior GT3's were "race cars" as you put it. ...but there's a clear lineage between the CUP and those cars that isn't present with the 991. The GT3 is purely a marketing term at this point.
I have yet to see someone make a coherent argument against that other than "have you driven one!", "you're an idiot", "wow such ignorance" ....
What doesn't make sense is who died and gave you the ability to come into the GT3 forum and flippantly claim the GT3 is a GTS-R? Other than to troll as others mentioned you are doing, why can't you just accept that a GTS is a GTS and a GT3 is a GT3? If you can't do that, perhaps you should go to a Vette forum, tell them they are driving a Camaro and see how well you fair.
In the meanwhile, enjoy a GTS video. And, we'll let you know if Porsche changes nomenclature since you seem to be having a hard time of it.
Dan (thinks destaccado would meet plainer opinions from mullet heads
)
10-08-2014, 05:05 PM
#108
Too much speculation about things we don't have data for. As already noted, probably safe to say that the 991 GT3 will alienate some because of its tech, especially the PDK, but will attract many others because of its usability for everything from comfy DD to hardcore track use, along with other factors such as looks, price, etc.
10-08-2014, 05:08 PM
#110
Race Director
I absolutely don't have the facts to back up my assertions. No data. But if someone had the folder with the data, I would bet you big stakes that I'm right. Keep in mind, Rennlist is by definition an enthusiast community. Most of the people here ARE more the manual tranny types. But even here, you only need to read many of the threads to see that many buyers are coming from non- GT cars. I think Porsche is increasing the base for GT3, and probably hardening even more the RS. What are you going to do when you see the neighbor soccer mom at the stop light in a GT3? Not being a pig about it, just saying.... the PDK changes everything in terms of potential audience.
None of this means I don't want one, my order already locked, but I think to say that this new GT3 by design is not meant to appeal to a much broader audience is falsehood... but youre right, I cant prove it, so just my opinion.
None of this means I don't want one, my order already locked, but I think to say that this new GT3 by design is not meant to appeal to a much broader audience is falsehood... but youre right, I cant prove it, so just my opinion.
Hardcore or not, the 991 GT3 pretty much blows the 997 version away by any objective measure. Arguing the subjective aspects is more problematic, so I'll leave it there. Except I will add that if by some remote chance I do run across a neighbor soccer mom in a 991 GT3, I'll offer to buy her a cup of coffee and have what I'm sure will be a fascinating conversation about cars.
10-08-2014, 05:20 PM
#111
10-08-2014, 05:32 PM
#112
Three Wheelin'
Joe, most of what you said I get and agree with. However, I still think that a bottom line fact that I cannot prove (although I guess I could put up a poll) is that....
for 991gt3 buyers, more were previous C2S, C4S, Targa, Turbo, GTS, etc. owners, converting to GT3... than with the 997.1 and 997.2 GT3s. And yes, I think the key reason is the PDK.
for 991gt3 buyers, more were previous C2S, C4S, Targa, Turbo, GTS, etc. owners, converting to GT3... than with the 997.1 and 997.2 GT3s. And yes, I think the key reason is the PDK.
One thing not taken into account is the fact that normally, a prior gen owner is desiring the next model, so they trade in their car, and purchase the new one. That may not be happening with the 991 GT3. I don't think a lot of manual owners are jumping on board right away. That has pushed up the price of the manual GT3s. I am a prior C2S owner, and started my search for a prior gen 997.2 RS, but because of the inflated demand for the manual, I switch my search for the older model, and chose to get the new one instead. Even though I wanted the manual, I wasn't going to pay through the roof for one.
10-08-2014, 05:59 PM
#113
Nordschleife Master
Ray, my (not so great eyes) were looking at the manual figure for the GTS, not PDK... you're right, that if you add PDK to the GTS it weighs more...with the standard manual, it weighs less...
10-08-2014, 06:07 PM
#114
Nordschleife Master
Joe, most of what you said I get and agree with. However, I still think that a bottom line fact that I cannot prove (although I guess I could put up a poll) is that....
for 991gt3 buyers, more were previous C2S, C4S, Targa, Turbo, GTS, etc. owners, converting to GT3... than with the 997.1 and 997.2 GT3s. And yes, I think the key reason is the PDK.
for 991gt3 buyers, more were previous C2S, C4S, Targa, Turbo, GTS, etc. owners, converting to GT3... than with the 997.1 and 997.2 GT3s. And yes, I think the key reason is the PDK.
There were plenty of non-GT owners that moved on to GT cars for the 996 and 997. It's a natural progression. People get bit by the Porsche 'bug' with non GT models, discover that they want a more raw experience and transition to a GT car. It happened to me. I started off with a boxster spyder. Never thought I'd own a Porsche before I got that car. Now I can't see myself in anything but a Porsche. I didn't decide to get a 991 GT3 because of PDK. I can tell you that for sure. I know how to drive a manual
FWIW, I'll add that owning or not owning a previous GT3 is not necessarily relevant to whether someone wants a new GT3. I would have loved a prior GT3 but circumstances dictated against one. When I was in a position to buy a GT3, new ones weren't available (I don't like buying used) and I bought a new 997 C2S. The 997.2 GT3 came out 6 months later and I kicked myself for the next 4 years, even though the Carrera was a great car.
Respectfully, I don't think you have facts to back up your suspicions. As Joe points out, almost every 991 GT3 buyer who posts here has had a previous GT3, track experience, Porsche experience, or MT experience with other performance cars. This forum doesn't represent ALL 991 GT3 buyers but it's a pretty good sample.
For those buying a 991 GT3 who weren't previous GT3 owners, there are plenty of reasons why they might not have bought a GT3 earlier. I don't have facts to back up my suspicions either, but my guess is that the availability of PDK is low on the list.
Respectfully, I don't think you have facts to back up your suspicions. As Joe points out, almost every 991 GT3 buyer who posts here has had a previous GT3, track experience, Porsche experience, or MT experience with other performance cars. This forum doesn't represent ALL 991 GT3 buyers but it's a pretty good sample.
For those buying a 991 GT3 who weren't previous GT3 owners, there are plenty of reasons why they might not have bought a GT3 earlier. I don't have facts to back up my suspicions either, but my guess is that the availability of PDK is low on the list.
Too much speculation about things we don't have data for. As already noted, probably safe to say that the 991 GT3 will alienate some because of its tech, especially the PDK, but will attract many others because of its usability for everything from comfy DD to hardcore track use, along with other factors such as looks, price, etc.
I absolutely don't have the facts to back up my assertions. No data. But if someone had the folder with the data, I would bet you big stakes that I'm right. Keep in mind, Rennlist is by definition an enthusiast community. Most of the people here ARE more the manual tranny types. But even here, you only need to read many of the threads to see that many buyers are coming from non- GT cars. I think Porsche is increasing the base for GT3, and probably hardening even more the RS. What are you going to do when you see the neighbor soccer mom at the stop light in a GT3? Not being a pig about it, just saying.... the PDK changes everything in terms of potential audience.
None of this means I don't want one, my order already locked, but I think to say that this new GT3 by design is not meant to appeal to a much broader audience is falsehood... but youre right, I cant prove it, so just my opinion.
None of this means I don't want one, my order already locked, but I think to say that this new GT3 by design is not meant to appeal to a much broader audience is falsehood... but youre right, I cant prove it, so just my opinion.
One thing not taken into account is the fact that normally, a prior gen owner is desiring the next model, so they trade in their car, and purchase the new one. That may not be happening with the 991 GT3. I don't think a lot of manual owners are jumping on board right away. That has pushed up the price of the manual GT3s. I am a prior C2S owner, and started my search for a prior gen 997.2 RS, but because of the inflated demand for the manual, I switch my search for the older model, and chose to get the new one instead. Even though I wanted the manual, I wasn't going to pay through the roof for one.
The perception is not the reality. The small vocal few are distorting the reality.
10-08-2014, 06:15 PM
#115
Rennlist Member
10-08-2014, 07:11 PM
#117
Rennlist Member
10-08-2014, 07:13 PM
#118
Race Director
Bard, I'll let her know you're interested!
10-08-2014, 07:21 PM
#119
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
Posts: 13,065
Received 4,377 Likes
on
2,490 Posts
But, I do appreciate that PDK has some undeniable benefits, and will focus on those benefits when I get the car, trusting that I'll be among the many others who like the PDK, including (formerly) diehard manual guys.
Plus, we intend to keep one or more manual Porsches, so the 991 GT3 should add some interesting variety.
10-08-2014, 07:31 PM
#120
Nordschleife Master
I ordered the 991 GT3 despite the PDK, not because of it. And if a good 6-sp manual had been available which mated with the car well, I would have gone with the manual and ordered the car earlier. But, I do appreciate that PDK has some undeniable benefits, and will focus on those benefits when I get the car, trusting that I'll be among the many others who like the PDK, including (formerly) diehard manual guys. Plus, we intend to keep one or more manual Porsches, so the 991 GT3 should add some interesting variety.